samtonga43
Well-Known Member
The sources you linked to do not contain objective evidence.
You don't know the difference between objective and subjective evidence.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
The sources you linked to do not contain objective evidence.
You don't know the difference between objective and subjective evidence.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are free to conclude anything you want to but that does not mean it is the truth. Not everyone will draw the same conclusions, in fact only a few will. The same was true when Jesus walked the earth.
Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is 2. A belief that MrB is a messenger from God.
Baha'u'llah wrote some of His own scriptures and what He did not write was dictated to His secretary after which time Baha'u'llah reviewed everything that was written and He stamped it with His official seal. The reason Baha'u'llah had a secretary is because He developed a tremor in His hand from having been poisoned, so it was difficult for Him to write.
"One of the tragic episodes of Bahá’u’lláh's time in Adrianople concerned the actions of his half-brother Mírzá Yahyá. City officials as well as the Bábís increasingly revered Bahá’u’lláh, and Mírzá Yahyá was so jealous that he had someone poison Him. Bahá’u’lláh became extremely ill, and it took Him months to recuperate. The episode left Him with a tremor that showed in His handwriting to the end of His life."
Bahá’u’lláh is poisoned - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh
"Despite the conditions under which Bahá’u’lláh and the rest of the exiles lived in Adrianople, His teachings continued to spread.
A greater flow of writings than ever before came from His pen and they were distributed by His followers to places as far away as Egypt and India. "Day and night," an eyewitness has written, "the Divine verses were raining down in such number that it was impossible to record them."(12) A number of secretaries working day and night were unable to keep up with all that Bahá’u’lláh dictated during this time."
Bahá’u’lláh continues to attract followers - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What does objective evidence mean?
Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.
What does objective evidence mean?
There is objective evidence for Baha’u’llah because Baha'u'llah was observed by many people and facts were written down. We can examine and evaluate those facts which are contained in the sources I linked to.
Pretty much of all that I've learned about your religion is based on my conversations with you
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is pretty limited and not very representative of what the Baha'i Faith teaches.
An accurate and comprehensive source of information is on this website:
The Baháʼí Faith - Home
If objective evidence refers to information based on facts, somebody writing down what they saw is not objective information; that's called hearsay, and you pointing it out makes it 2nd hand information.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Call it what you like, but it is information based on facts, as the history of the Baha'i Faith was chronicled by people who knew the central figures of the Baha'i Faith.
The history of the Baha’i Faith began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The two texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944).
We are not talking about the Bible now, that is not the same because the writers of the Bible did not know Moses or Jesus personally.
How do you think you are going to get first hand information about a person who is no longer living?
Last edited:
ppp
Well-Known Member
Argumentum ad populum
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why?
How do you know the people who Chronicled this faith were telling the truth? What objective proof do you have that they were being 100% candid and accurate about what they wrote?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why would they lie? What would be their motive?
Are you seriously going to ask me why somebody would lie concerning religion; you jokin' right?? Look I ain't tryin' to insult you or your faith; all I'm saying is you have no objective proof that what these people said was accurate, so you do not have the right to call their accounts facts.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are conditioned to believe that all religions are a conspiracy to fool people, and that is a biased view.
I do not care if you call them facts, they are just as accurate as any other historical accounts. What objective proof is there of any other historical accounts?
Are historical facts true?
A historical fact is a fact about the past. It answers the very basic question, "What happened?" Yet beyond merely listing the events in chronological order, historians try to discover why events happened, what circumstances contributed to their cause, what subsequent effects they had, and how they were interpreted.
Historical Facts | Beyond Intractability
https://www.beyondintractability.org › essay › historical...
How accurate are historical records?
Historical records are no different. Some sources may be considered more reliable than others, but every source is biased in some way. Because of this, historians read skeptically and cross-check sources against other evidence.May 2, 2017
9 Ways to Verify Primary Source Reliability - Margot Note Consulting ...
https://www.margotnote.com › blog › 9-ways-to-verify-pr...
It doesn't matter; facts are demonstrable and undisputed as true, and the existence of your God is not an undisputed fact, so you have no right to call their accounts facts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never claimed that the existence of God is not an undisputed fact; in fact I have claimed quite the opposite!
Historical accounts contain both facts and opinions.
How do we know historical facts are true?
History contains both fact and opinion. Facts are things that are unchanging and can be objectively verified. Many historical facts are verified by primary sources, which consist of documents and other types of physical items that were created during the time being studied.Nov 14, 2021
Differences Between Fact & Opinion in Historical Narratives
And that is where we disagree. The existence of God is NOT an undisputed fact, it is a religious belief.
True! And the existence of God (one of many claims of Bahai messengers) is not a fact that can be objectively verified.
Why would Joseph Smith or Marshall Applewhite lie? What would be their motives?
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Those writings and claims are open to interpretation, thus they are not objective evidence. A fact is simply defined as something that is known to be true, in order for those writings to contain facts, the knowledge would need to be verifiable by anyone, not just subjective adherents of your religion. This is true of all religious texts, of all written claims in fact.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Which is why Kfox is correct in labelling it hearsay of course. However even were historical facts corroborated to high degree, these are very distinct from supernatural claims. Extraordinary claims must necessary require extraordinary evidence.
If I claimed I owned a pair of shoes, you might be prepared to take my word for it, if I claimed I owned a spacecraft, I doubt you'd be so credulous, and it shouldn't need pointing out that we know spacecrafts exist as an objective fact, we have not such objective evidence to support any supernatural claims.
Hearsay by definition is not factual, and of course you'd need to demonstrate one of these facts and the objective evidence that you claim supports it, as last I asked all I got was 5 subjective claims from you, and some links to your religions teachings.