Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

You responded to it? Seems to me that you just changed the subject immediately.

I did reply to that: I said:

Our subconscious biases influence everything we do all the time. There is no way to ensure that does not happen, but even if your subconscious biases influenced you that does not mean that you will not make the correct determination.

If you are 'aware' of what your biases are you can try to compensate for them as you do your research.
#5613 Trailblazer, Friday at 7:52 PM

If you have nothing to add to a conversation, then let the conversation go. Don't try and move the topic to something else.

It was related to the topic, biases, since I was talking about conscious biases.

That's just wrong.

If there's no way to detect such influences, then there are no influences.

There's no way to detect such influences since they are subconscious, and nobody can see into the subconscious.
Just because there is no way to detect such influences, that does not mean there are no influences. That is illogical.

The subconscious is the part of your mind which operates without your awareness and over which you do not have active control. The part of your mind that creates your dreams is an example of your subconscious. The definition of subconscious is something happening with little or no perception by the individual.
Best 12 Definitions of Subconscious - YourDictionary

Very well. Please show me a source which is not in any way connected to the Baha'i Faith.

BBC - Religion: Bahá'í

Baha’i Faith | History, Practices, & Facts

 

[night912]

People of all faiths say that about their chosen prophet. It's not convincing in the slightest.

And what they say is true. If they recognized their Prophet that means they have spiritual eyes and the ability to think logically.

That's strange? In the past you've said on numerous occasions that Joseph Smith is not a prophet. I learned something new from you, that you were recently convinced that Joseph Smith is a messenger of god.

 

[Tiberius]

I'm simply saying that if many Baha'is are saying the same thing to you, and each of these Baha'is is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

Agreed.

That's why I have looked at what they have to say, found it riddled with logical fallacies and unsupported claims, and concluded it was bunk.

 

[Tiberius]

It is a claim and the evidence has already been provided.

I don't recall you ever producing any evidence to support that claim.

Please show me that evidence.

Remember, since the claim comes from Mr B, the evidence can't consist of anything that Mr B said or did, or anything based on what he said or did. Otherwise it is circular logic.

 

[Tiberius]

And what they say is true. If they recognized their Prophet that means they have spiritual eyes and the ability to think logically.

How is that possible if each group is saying all the other groups are wrong?

Logic tells us we can't have multiple truths if each one says all the others are false.

Seems like someone isn't as good with logic as they pretend to be.

Nobody is trying to convince you of anything. That was established a long time ago.

For someone who isn't trying to convince people of anything, you sure do a good impression of it.

 

[Tiberius]

I did reply to that: I said:

Our subconscious biases influence everything we do all the time. There is no way to ensure that does not happen, but even if your subconscious biases influenced you that does not mean that you will not make the correct determination.

If you are 'aware' of what your biases are you can try to compensate for them as you do your research.
#5613 Trailblazer, Friday at 7:52 PM

You truly are amazing.

Somehow, you managed to answer my question in post 5613, DESPITE the fact that I didn't even ask the question until post 5618.

According to the time stamps on the posts, you answered my question three hours and eighteen minutes BEFORE I asked it.

Please, I beg you, tell us how you did that!

Or perhaps you're just waffling on here and just aren't able to follow the conversation.

It was related to the topic, biases, since I was talking about conscious biases.

Irrelevant, since I was talking about SUBconscious biases.

There's no way to detect such influences since they are subconscious, and nobody can see into the subconscious.
Just because there is no way to detect such influences, that does not mean there are no influences. That is illogical.

If they are undetectable, how do you know there are no such influences?

I could just as easily say that we can't detect Flindanglegloops, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

The subconscious is the part of your mind which operates without your awareness and over which you do not have active control. The part of your mind that creates your dreams is an example of your subconscious. The definition of subconscious is something happening with little or no perception by the individual.
Best 12 Definitions of Subconscious - YourDictionary

Little or no perception BY THE INDIVIDUAL.

Of course, that doesn't mean that someone else can't see them. Because "someone else" is not the individual who holds such biases.

It's like the guy who's afraid of flying, but is incapable of admitting it, and he always has some perfectly justifiable reason to avoid flying. "It's more fun to drive, I get to see more of the country." "I'd rather drive so I don't have to hire a car at the destination." "If I drive, I don't have to worry about weight restrictions."

BBC - Religion: Bahá'í

Baha’i Faith | History, Practices, & Facts

"Video unavailable
The uploader has not made this video available in your country"

In any case, I'd be surprised if the producers of that did not use Mr B's work as a reference, either directly or indirectly.

 

[Trailblazer]

Agreed.

That's why I have looked at what they have to say, found it riddled with logical fallacies and unsupported claims, and concluded it was bunk.

I was not suggesting you make a decision about the Baha'i Faith based upon what the 'other Baha'is' have to say.
I was only pointing out that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

You should NO MORE make a decision about what to believe based upon what Baha'is say than I should make a decision about what to believe based upon what atheists say.

I explained why you should not do that to you before and I just reiterated it on this post to CG.

#1551 Trailblazer, 59 minutes ago

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't recall you ever producing any evidence to support that claim.

Please show me that evidence.

Been there done that. I won't post it again.

Remember, since the claim comes from Mr B, the evidence can't consist of anything that Mr B said or did, or anything based on what he said or did. Otherwise it is circular logic.

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

How is that possible if each group is saying all the other groups are wrong?

Because all the true Prophets were right. I was the religious believers who strayed far from the truth when they misinterpreted the original scriptures and corrupted the messages of those Prophets.

Logic tells us we can't have multiple truths if each one says all the others are false.

Seems like someone isn't as good with logic as they pretend to be.

I do not believe in illogical things. There is a logical explanation for everything Baha'is believe.

For someone who isn't trying to convince people of anything, you sure do a good impression of it.

I think you are projecting onto me what 'you believe' my motives are.
I have no interest in convincing anyone that my beliefs are true.
I just respond to posts that are posted to me because I consider that my responsibility.

I do not want to convince anyone. As Baha'u'llah wrote:

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

 

[rational experiences]

An example of a material object that makes a case for Baha'u'llah:
Exhibition of Baha’u’llah’s writings opens at British Museum | BWNS

How is that relevant?
if Baha'u'llah was here you STILL would not be able to verify that He got messages from God... All you would have is His word on it. How would you know? Even close members of His family did not believe He was a Messenger of God.

Of course none of this is relevant anyway because Baha'u'llah is not here, He is in heaven with God and Jesus and all the other Messengers in the Supreme Concourse.

If man updated his shroud victim image it was by...
all men on earth... new man cloud image. Taken out of every man's DNA living biology.

The All. As bugs trees animals humans all images appear in clouds. But only the man was changed he says as he owned everything before him falsely.

Cloud image updated. But of course man in the clouds is more important he says than anyone elses image by the ALL.

So the victim would have claimed I will now be in the image vision. My life sacrifice proven. By the way I felt not asked for. By what I saw not asked for. By what I heard not asked for.

It was given.

Now I hadn't read recanted the bible like some humans do. I still gained similar advice as the sciencE of man caused it.

He started button pushing his machine yet his Alchemy began at position he took as melting gods dusts to build machine. So machine body goes back in time first by reaction.

Which the dimwit knew. So he water cooled his machine. Space pressure owned ice historic that fixed the star mass to no gas burning ignored. Then water mass already cooled the dusts to be a dust ignored.

So he removes history of both water and space pressure.

To his idea it is heated water. We'll still live. He wasn't using ice to cool his pyramid reactor underground. Why it blew.

We die by biology in heated water by hot gas burning.

Whilst man tries to get hydrogen only.

Science however knew it never owned the entity fallen star. Falling star was why ice inherited its ice status on earths planet.

Their thesis began with earth dusts to machine.

Clouds in heavens are cold not hot.

 

[Trailblazer]

You truly are amazing.

Somehow, you managed to answer my question in post 5613, DESPITE the fact that I didn't even ask the question until post 5618.

According to the time stamps on the posts, you answered my question three hours and eighteen minutes BEFORE I asked it.

Please, I beg you, tell us how you did that!

Simple. I addressed it and then you brought it up again after that.... sounds like you were not listening.

If they are undetectable, how do you know there are no such influences?

Because science says so.

The Subconscious Mind controls 95 percent of your life

Todays science estimates that 95 percent of our brains activity is unconscious, meaning that the majority of the decisions we make, the actions we take, our emotions and behaviours, depend on the 95 percent of brain activity that lies beyond conscious awareness.

9 interesting facts about your subconscious mind - Gail Marra

Little or no perception BY THE INDIVIDUAL.

Of course, that doesn't mean that someone else can't see them. Because "someone else" is not the individual who holds such biases.

Please present any scientific research that says that we can see into another person's subconscious mind.

"Video unavailable
The uploader has not made this video available in your country"

In any case, I'd be surprised if the producers of that did not use Mr B's work as a reference, either directly or indirectly.

Of course they did. Without His work and what other people wrote about Him and what He did, the chronicled history, we would know nothing about Him, so nobody who was not a Baha'i would be able to KNOW anything about Him!

I suggest you remove your bias and try to think logically.

 

[samtonga43]

So, it many people have told me that means it is true?

Not necessarily.

However, someone who congratulates herself for 'thinking logically' should perhaps consider what many people have told you. This would be the logical thing to do.

To simply dismiss what many people have told you would be to commit the argument by pigheadedness, a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given.
Invincible ignorance fallacy - Wikipedia

 

[Tiberius]

I was not suggesting you make a decision about the Baha'i Faith based upon what the 'other Baha'is' have to say.
I was only pointing out that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

You should NO MORE make a decision about what to believe based upon what Baha'is say than I should make a decision about what to believe based upon what atheists say.

I explained why you should not do that to you before and I just reiterated it on this post to CG.

#1551 Trailblazer, 59 minutes ago

I'm simply saying that if many atheists are saying the same thing to you, and each of these atheists is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

 

[samtonga43]

I have no interest in convincing anyone that my beliefs are true. I just respond to posts that are posted to me because I consider that my responsibility.

Then you are responsible for turning people away from what you believe.

 

[Tiberius]

Been there done that. I won't post it again.

Again?

That would suggest that you've posted evidence to support Mr B's claims that did NOT come either directly or indirectly from his own works.

Circular reasoning

(Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia

Notice the big IF there. IF the premises are true. It's entirely possible to have a logically valid argument which is false because the premises are untrue.

The president of the United States must be younger than 35.
Elizabeth Taylor is president of the United States.
So, Elizabeth Taylor must be younger than 35.

The conclusion flows soundly from the premise, so the logic is valid. However, since the premises themselves are false, the argument is not true.

Valid (false premises, false conclusion)

 

[Tiberius]

Because all the true Prophets were right. I was the religious believers who strayed far from the truth when they misinterpreted the original scriptures and corrupted the messages of those Prophets.

And here we are with more claims that you say you don't make.

You are claiming that the "true" prophets were right. You are claiming that it was the religious believers who strayed far from the truth when they misinterpreted the original scriptures and corrupted the messages of those Prophets.

I think you are projecting onto me what 'you believe' my motives are.
I have no interest in convincing anyone that my beliefs are true.
I just respond to posts that are posted to me because I consider that my responsibility.

I do not want to convince anyone. As Baha'u'llah wrote:

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings, p. 143

You've literally started threads about this stuff. What posts were you responding to in the threads where you wrote the very first post?

 

[Tiberius]

Simple. I addressed it and then you brought it up again after that.... sounds like you were not listening.

Absolute garbage. You literally presented it as an ANSWER to my question. Now you are trying to pretend that you are the one who got me talking about it? Once again, you are furiously backpeddling to make it look like you know what you are doing.

Because science says so.

The Subconscious Mind controls 95 percent of your life

Todays science estimates that 95 percent of our brains activity is unconscious, meaning that the majority of the decisions we make, the actions we take, our emotions and behaviours, depend on the 95 percent of brain activity that lies beyond conscious awareness.

9 interesting facts about your subconscious mind - Gail Marra

I see nothing there which indicates that subconscious BIASES (not subconscious mind) are completely undetectable.

Please present any scientific research that says that we can see into another person's subconscious mind.

I literally gave an example of how we can see the effects of a person's subconscious mind when I mentioned the guy with a fear of flying who always made what he viewed as rational excuses to avoid flying.

Of course they did. Without His work and what other people wrote about Him and what He did, the chronicled history, we would know nothing about Him, so nobody who was not a Baha'i would be able to KNOW anything about Him!

I suggest you remove your bias and try to think logically.

So they based their position on his work - which, since it is the claim, can not be used as the evidence to support the claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm simply saying that if many atheists are saying the same thing to you, and each of these atheists is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

I'm simply saying that if many Baha'is are saying the same thing to you, and each of these Baha'is is doing so independently, then it may be time to consider if they have a point.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again?

That would suggest that you've posted evidence to support Mr B's claims that did NOT come either directly or indirectly from his own works.

It would not suggest that because it is unnecessary to provide evidence that did NOT come either directly or indirectly from his own works. Evidence is evidence, and His own works are part of the evidence.

However, I have presented evidence that is not either directly or indirectly from his own works.

Notice the big IF there. IF the premises are true. It's entirely possible to have a logically valid argument which is false because the premises are untrue.

Do you think I don't know that? That is correct, but.....

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion God exists must be true.

If the premise Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is true, then the conclusion the Baha'i Faith is true must be true.

You are free to believe whatever you want to but I know the premises are true so I know the conclusions are true.

 

[Trailblazer]

And here we are with more claims that you say you don't make.

You are claiming that the "true" prophets were right. You are claiming that it was the religious believers who strayed far from the truth when they misinterpreted the original scriptures and corrupted the messages of those Prophets.

No, they are not claims, they are beliefs I hold based upon what my religion teaches.

You've literally started threads about this stuff. What posts were you responding to in the threads where you wrote the very first post?

I have no idea what you are asking.