Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

And why did he choose those as his terms? What goal does he accomplish with them?

Getting people to recognize His Messengers.

Given the small number of Baha'is in the world, it doesn't seem like things are going God's way, does it? I'd expect better performance from a plan developed by the Almighty creator of the universe and all things.

It does not matter to God how many Baha'is there are because God knows that eventually everyone will know about and believe in Baha'u'llah.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

God is not the one who determines how many people believe in Baha'u'llah, people determine that, so the poor performance is on the part of people.

You literally just said, "I never pray for anything specific, I leave it up to God to decide what I need."

I also said that I sometimes pray for people like that atheist I mentioned.

 

[Tiberius]

No, what Baha'u'llah wrote is separate from what Baha'u'llah did.

We know what Baha'u'llah did on His mission from what other people wrote.

I challenge you then to prove your points without quoting ANYTHING that Mr B wrote.

I was asking you the question, I already knew the answer.

Sure.

I totally believe you.

I do not use the NT to bolster my beliefs. As the return of Christ, Baha'u'llah fulfilled the promises of Jesus, so sometimes I refer to those.

And why would you refer to them if not to bolster your beliefs by saying, "Look, here's a prophecy from the NT that fits with what Mr B did, so it is evidence Bahai is right!"

Sometimes I quote NT verses that I like but not to bolster my beliefs.

Then it is irrelevant to the discussion. Please do not post irrelevant content.

 

[Trailblazer]

I challenge you then to prove your points without quoting ANYTHING that Mr B wrote.

Prove what points?

And why would you refer to them if not to bolster your beliefs by saying, "Look, here's a prophecy from the NT that fits with what Mr B did, so it is evidence Bahai is right!"

If it bolsters my beliefs it bolsters my beliefs. So what?
Sure as shootin' it is evidence when Baha'u'llah says and does exactly what Jesus promised the return of Christ would do!

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus in His Writings, just as Jesus promised the Comforter would do.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee.....
.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[samtonga43]

Tb Stalking me is not going to get rid of me.
LOL! I have no wish to get rid of you, Tb. Are you developing a persecution complex?

Tb Trying to make me look bad to other posters..
I have no need to try, Tb. You manage this all on your own.

Tb Calling me illogical when there is no basis for that accusation except that you do not LIKE the conclusion.
No, it’s much simpler than this. You are often illogical ...

Tb Following me from thread to thread for a whole year,
In your dreams.

Tb Criticizing my thinking process and my beliefs, …
This is a debate forum, Tb. What makes you think you are immune from criticism?

Tb You have been reported before for your stalking behavior so the staff knows about it.
Not quite. They know that you have reported what you say is stalking behavior. Do you see the difference?

Tb I will not apologize because I did nothing wrong.
Of course you have done something wrong. You have accused me, on a public forum, of stalking, and you do not deny doing this, but you cannot produce one scrap of evidence. In fact, it’s worse than this. You say that you will not produce any evidence. Inquiring minds would like to know WHY you will not produce any evidence. Do you have an answer?

Tb You have made false and defamatory statements about me and I do not know why
I wonder why, once again, you cannot /will not provide one scrap of evidence to support this accusation?

Tb No, I will not apologize for what you have been doing.
I am asking you to apologize for what you have been doing, Tb.

 

[samtonga43]

Below are just a few examples, and it goes on and on and on and on, ad nauseum. There is no discussion, only constant criticism.

This is the crux of the matter. This is exactly what Tb cannot recognize. When I say 'cannot' I really mean that she is unable to understand what has happened to her. I don't mean that she has tried to understand and failed. I mean that she has locked herself into a brainwashed state of mind and she has lost the key.

Words/concepts like knowledge, meaning, evidence, truth, proof, belief are used to suit whatever point she is making at the time. There is a mechanical flavour about it all that (to me) is quite disturbing.
#5738 samtonga43, Mar 16, 2022

If many non-Baha'is are saying the same thing to you, and each of these non-Baha'is is doing so independently, it may be time to consider if they have a point. What do you think, Tb?
#5739 samtonga43, Mar 16, 2022

You think in a way that relates only slightly to a matter? Well, yes. This is obvious to all.
[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 7586954, member: 63455"I see that as usual you could not pass up an opportunity to criticize me again, unaware that this says more about you that it says about anything I actually did

There's more than one person criticizing your posts, Tb.
#5505 samtonga43, Mar 3, 2022

*Sigh* Yes, believe it or not, we are all aware of this fallacious argument. No need to repeat yourself ad nauseam. However, It was you, all by yourself, who said that you think tangentially (in a way that relates only slightly to a matter). I just agreed with you.

If you persist in this lack of self-knowledge you will never move forward.
#5509 samtonga43, Mar 4, 2022

However, someone who congratulates herself for 'thinking logically' should perhaps consider what many people have told you. This would be the logical thing to do.

To simply dismiss what many people have told you would be to commit the argument by pigheadedness, a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given.
Invincible ignorance fallacy - Wikipedia
#5692 samtonga43, Mar 15, 2022

Me too. I honestly believe that Tb's fellow Bahai's will not be happy with her presentation of their beliefs.
#5517 samtonga43, Mar 7, 2022

P1 I have permission to respond to posts on this forum
P2 I respond to Tb’s posts about what she believes and why she believes it.
Conclusion:
Tb is mistaken when she says that what she believes is ‘none of my business’.

I am. I am discussing the errors in your logical thinking process which lead to your belief that you are correct. By the way, can you clear something up for me? Are you unsure of the meaning of the word ‘discussion’, or the term ‘none of your business’? Is this why you have to refer to a dictionary for the definitions?
#5349 samtonga43, Feb 24, 2022[/QUOTE]

I have said nothing that others have not said to you, Tb.
Ad Nauseam

 

[Flagran]

Whenever I say that Messengers of God are the evidence of God’s existence atheists say “that’s not evidence.”

So if “that’s not evidence” what would be evidence of God’s existence?

If God existed, where would we get the evidence? How would we get it?

As I see it there are only three possibilities:

1. God exists and there is evidence so we should look for the evidence.
2. God exists but there is no evidence so there is nothing to look for.
3. God does not exist and that is why there is no evidence.

I believe (1) God exists and there is evidence, because if there was no evidence God could not hold humans accountable for believing in Him. Why would God expect us to believe He exists and provide no evidence? That would be unfair as well as unreasonable.

You are evidence of Gods existence!!!!..explain how you came to be?...explain how our order of our solar system came to be?...explain how conditions that support life on Earth came to be?...The position of the Sun the Earth and the Moon rotating and it's implications etc etc etc...Just what are the odds are of that happening?...You look for evidence outwardly but you don't look inwardly...Our existence is not of random chance but of order...Look at your laptop... without magnetism like polarised components your laptop would not work!!! without Earths magnetism or positions of stars or the Sun you would not know North from South and ships could not navigate!!! Random chance?!?!... Just as there are laws in the Universe...there should be also laws for mankind...we have been given freewill just as God gave freewill to His angels to either create or destroy...love or hate...Obey God through His Son Jesus as His example...choose life and live...

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb Stalking me is not going to get rid of me.
LOL! I have no wish to get rid of you, Tb. Are you developing a persecution complex?

Tb Trying to make me look bad to other posters..
I have no need to try, Tb. You manage this all on your own.

Tb Calling me illogical when there is no basis for that accusation except that you do not LIKE the conclusion.
No, it’s much simpler than this. You are often illogical ...

Tb Following me from thread to thread for a whole year,
In your dreams.

Tb Criticizing my thinking process and my beliefs, …
This is a debate forum, Tb. What makes you think you are immune from criticism?

Tb You have been reported before for your stalking behavior so the staff knows about it.
Not quite. They know that you have reported what you say is stalking behavior. Do you see the difference?

Tb I will not apologize because I did nothing wrong.
Of course you have done something wrong. You have accused me, on a public forum, of stalking, and you do not deny doing this, but you cannot produce one scrap of evidence. In fact, it’s worse than this. You say that you will not produce any evidence. Inquiring minds would like to know WHY you will not produce any evidence. Do you have an answer?

Tb You have made false and defamatory statements about me and I do not know why
I wonder why, once again, you cannot /will not provide one scrap of evidence to support this accusation?

Tb No, I will not apologize for what you have been doing.
I am asking you to apologize for what you have been doing, Tb.

The stalking continues.
I do not have to LOOK for older posts to prove my point, they keep coming in.

 

[ppp]

There's more than one person criticizing your posts, Tb.
#5505 samtonga43, Mar 3, 2022

*Sigh* Yes, believe it or not, we are all aware of this fallacious argument. No need to repeat yourself ad nauseam. However, It was you, all by yourself, who said that you think tangentially (in a way that relates only slightly to a matter). I just agreed with you.

If you persist in this lack of self-knowledge you will never move forward.
#5509 samtonga43, Mar 4, 2022

However, someone who congratulates herself for 'thinking logically' should perhaps consider what many people have told you. This would be the logical thing to do.

To simply dismiss what many people have told you would be to commit the argument by pigheadedness, a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given.
Invincible ignorance fallacy - Wikipedia
#5692 samtonga43, Mar 15, 2022

Me too. I honestly believe that Tb's fellow Bahai's will not be happy with her presentation of their beliefs.
#5517 samtonga43, Mar 7, 2022

P1 I have permission to respond to posts on this forum
P2 I respond to Tb’s posts about what she believes and why she believes it.
Conclusion:
Tb is mistaken when she says that what she believes is ‘none of my business’.

I am. I am discussing the errors in your logical thinking process which lead to your belief that you are correct. By the way, can you clear something up for me? Are you unsure of the meaning of the word ‘discussion’, or the term ‘none of your business’? Is this why you have to refer to a dictionary for the definitions?
#5349 samtonga43, Feb 24, 2022

We all know she does it. We all know she'll never admit it. Let it go.

 

[Trailblazer]

We all know she does it.

Yet nobody has actually ever proven it.... they just say I do it.
Prove it and then it will be a fact.
Till then it is just a bald assertion.

 

[Sheldon]

Obey God through His Son Jesus as His example...choose life and live...

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

 

[Trailblazer]

There's more than one person criticizing your posts, Tb.
#5505 samtonga43, Mar 3, 2022

There are plenty of people who disagree with what I believe but you are the only person who behaves like you.

Stalking is unwanted or obsessive attention, following, harassing, or monitoring behavior.
You are the only person on this forum who does that.

Everyone can see that but you.

 

[Trailblazer]

We all know she does it. We all know she'll never admit it. Let it go.

We all know that she is stalking me, and we all know she will never admit it.
I was willing to let go of it and move on but she won't let go of it, she just continues to stalk me.

 

[Tiberius]

Getting people to recognize His Messengers.

That sounds like needless busy work. God creates messengers so people can recognise his messengers.

It does not matter to God how many Baha'is there are because God knows that eventually everyone will know about and believe in Baha'u'llah.

Okay.

You know people of all faiths say the same thing, right? "One day, all people will know that <<insert religious faith of choice here>> is the truth!"

I also said that I sometimes pray for people like that atheist I mentioned.

And this has nothing to do with what we were talking about.

 

[Tiberius]

Prove what points?

Have you forgotten what you are in here for?

If it bolsters my beliefs it bolsters my beliefs. So what?
Sure as shootin' it is evidence when Baha'u'llah says and does exactly what Jesus promised the return of Christ would do!

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah glorified Jesus and testified of Jesus in His Writings, just as Jesus promised the Comforter would do.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee.....
.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

At least you can admit to your double standards.

 

[Trailblazer]

That sounds like needless busy work. God creates messengers so people can recognise his messengers.

No, that is not the reason why God sends Messengers. God sends Messengers to guide humanity to the straight Path of Truth and to educate all men, so that when they die they can ascend to God.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being....” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

The Messengers of God have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being. In other words, they keep the world going. Without the Messengers of God the world would be cold and dead.

“One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 72

You know people of all faiths say the same thing, right? "One day, all people will know that <<insert religious faith of choice here>> is the truth!"

So what if they all say that? What do you think that means? To be fair I will give you a chance to answer that before I accuse you of committing a fallacy.

 

[Tiberius]

No, that is not the reason why God sends Messengers. God sends Messengers to guide humanity to the straight Path of Truth, to educate all men, so that when they die they can ascend to God.

The Messengers of God have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being. In other words, they keep the world going.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being....” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157

It's not a very efficient way of doing it, is it?

So what if they all say that? What do you think that means? To be fair I will give you a chance to answer that before I accuse you of committing a fallacy.

The point is that you dismiss a Jewish person when they say, "One day you will see that Judaism, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!" You dismiss a Muslim when they say, "One day you will see that Islam, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!" You dismiss a Hindu when they say, "One day you will see that Hindi, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!" You dismiss a Christian when they say, "One day you will see that Christianity, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!"

So why can't we all dismiss you when you say, "One day you will see that Baha'i, not whatever you currently believe, is the correct faith!"

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you forgotten what you are in here for?

I know what I am here for but you do not know what I am here for.
I am certainly not here to prove anything to you, or anyone else.

At least you can admit to your double standards.

No, I made no such admission.
Apparently the whole point of what I posted flew right over your head.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not a very efficient way of doing it, is it?

It is perfectly efficient since most people in the world recognize the Messengers.

84 percent of the world population has a faith and because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no men who act as "intermediaries" between God and man very few people would believe in God.

The point is that you dismiss a Jewish person when they say, "One day you will see that Judaism, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!" You dismiss a Muslim when they say, "One day you will see that Islam, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!" You dismiss a Hindu when they say, "One day you will see that Hindi, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!" You dismiss a Christian when they say, "One day you will see that Christianity, not Baha'i, is the correct faith!"

So why can't we all dismiss you when you say, "One day you will see that Baha'i, not whatever you currently believe, is the correct faith!"

They dismiss me and I dismiss them as being the only true religion. So what? What do you think that means?

I will tell you what it does not mean. It does not mean that they are all right just because they believe they are all right because what people believe has no bearing on what is true. Moreover, all those religions cannot be right since they contradict each other.

Moreover, it would be the fallacy of hasty generalization to assume that the Baha'i Faith is just like all the other religions who claim they are the only true religion, just because we all say we are the true religion. The BIG difference between the Baha'i Faith and all those other religions is that the Baha'i Faith does not claim to be the ONLY true religion whereas all the other religions make that claim.

You are free to dismiss any religion you want to dismiss or you can choose to dismiss all of them since you have free will to choose.

 

[Tiberius]

I know what I am here for but you do not know what I am here for.
I am certainly not here to prove anything to you, or anyone else.

So what exactly are you in here for?

No, I made no such admission.
Apparently the whole point of what I posted flew right over your head.

Yes you did.

I pointed out (in post 5918) that it is a double standard for you to cast doubt on the NT accounts of Jesus (as you did in post 5905) and then use those same accounts to support your Baha'i beliefs (as you did in post 5923, as well as other posts in the past too numerous to mention).

 

[Tiberius]

It is perfectly efficient since most people in the world recognize the Messengers.

First of all, argument from popularity.

There you go again, using those pesky logical fallacies.

Secondly, need I remind you that most people only recognise ONE of them, so they've still got it wrong by your accounts!

84 percent of the world population has a faith and because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no men who act as "intermediaries" between God and man very few people would believe in God.

The point is that even if there were no messengers, God could still find a way to make sure lots of people believed.

They dismiss me and I dismiss them as being the only true religion. So what? What do you think that means?

I think it means that you're all wrong.

I will tell you what it does not mean. It does not mean that they are all right just because they believe they are all right because what people believe has no bearing on what is true. Moreover, all those religions cannot be right since they contradict each other.

True.

However, concluding that they are all wrong fits perfectly with all of the claims.

Moreover, it would be the fallacy of hasty generalization to assume that the Baha'i Faith is just like all the other religions who claim they are the only true religion, just because we all say we are the true religion. The BIG difference between the Baha'i Faith and all those other religions is that the Baha'i Faith does not claim to be the ONLY true religion whereas all the other religions make that claim.

You have demonstrated many times that in virtually all respects they are essentially identical. Pointing out one way in which Bahai is a little bit different doesn't mean that Bahai is compeltely different.

You are free to dismiss any religion you want to dismiss or you can choose to dismiss all of them since you have free will to choose.

What if God knew that I would dismiss them all 50 years before I was born? Then I wouldn't have been able to freely choose to do anything else.