Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Sheldon]

There are many options to choose from. You will only choose the ONE option that God knows

And you have stated we cannot choose otherwise, thus there would logically be no choice, just the illusion of one.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

That's pretty funny, thanks.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've lost track of how many times I've already answered this question. If you ignored me before, I have to conclude that you'll ignore me again.

You never answered this question:
If you must do what God has foreseen you will do what is making you do it, if not God’s foreknowledge?

Because there is only ONE available option, and that means it is not a choice.

Yet you cannot explain WHY there is only one available option.

It was never locked in? What does that mean? That it could be changed? Then how could God know for sure if it could be changed?

The knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things. Omniscience is a perfection of God, an attribute of God.

God knows everything that has ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen. God knew all of that at creation and what God knows is unrelated to when it happens in this material world.

You can make more than one choice, but whatever choice you make will be the ONE CHOICE that God has always known you would make.

Nothing is locked in until it actually happens. Let's say a man called John decided to murder his wife. Once John commits that murder the choice to commit the murder has been made. John chose to murder his wife and committed the act. That event is now locked in. God always knew that John would murder his wife but if John changed his mind at the last minute and decided NOT to murder his wife, God would have known John was going to change his mind.

Again, I can't tell you how many times I've said that I'm not claiming that God's foreknowledge is what makes me do things.

How many more times are you going to bring up this strawman argument?

I was not saying that YOU were claiming what that God's foreknowledge is what makes you do things, so it is not a strawman.

When did I say that GOD is the one who predetermines anything?

Below you said "if God had foreseen" and then you went on to say how everything is predetermined if one thing is predetermined. If God did not predetermine it who did?

If God has foreseen that I will meet the woman I will marry tonight when I go to buy groceries, I do NOT have the free choice to stay in and order a pizza. And last week, I did NOT have the free choice to make plans to go to the nightclub with my buddies tonight. The guy who lives in the next suburb does NOT have the free choice to drive his car while drunk in a way that would hit and kill me before I get to the supermarket. The police officers do NOT have the free choice to pull me over for a random breath test that would delay my arrival until after the woman has gone. I can keep going with this all night and come up with a pretty much infinite list of things that could NOT happen because they would prevent the event that God had predetermined. That means that God must have predetermined that each item in this infinite list of events that would ruin me meeting the woman must ALSO have been predetermined to not happen. And then all the things that could have caused any of those events to happen must have been predetermined to not happen, and so on backwards and backwards until God needs to predetermine every single little thing throughout the entire history of the universe.

As I've already explained, if even a single thing has been predetermined, then EVERYTHING must be predetermined, at least until that predetermined event has occurred.

YOU are the one who started talking about God predetermining things in post 6059: "We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is."

Predetermination is a separate subject from free will. Some things are fated/predestined by God and those are predetermined. Many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God.

If something is predetermined it is predetermined by God, and in that case it is not subject to human free will. We cannot choose from different options if something was predetermined by God. We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is.

As I've already explained, if even a single thing has been predetermined, then EVERYTHING must be predetermined, at least until that predetermined event has occurred.

Yet you cannot explain WHY anything is predetermined.

You said "If God has foreseen that I will meet the woman I will marry tonight when I go to buy groceries, I do NOT have the free choice to stay in and order a pizza" and then you said "I'm not claiming that God's foreknowledge is what makes me do things."

Then what is CAUSING you to do what God has foreseen?

I believe that SOME things that happen to us are predetermined (fated/predestined to happen) but everything else is subject to free will, so it is a choice.

Predetermination and free will are mutually exclusive but both exist.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And you have stated we cannot choose otherwise, thus there would logically be no choice, just the illusion of one.

You will choose what you want to choose.
If there is any illusion at all, it is you claiming to know how God operates, when you don't believe in Him.

 

[ppp]

You will choose what you want to choose.
If there is any illusion at all, it is you claiming to know how God operates, when you don't believe in Him.

You are claiming how God operates. @Sheldon is stating what your god claims logically entail.

 

[Tiberius]

There are many options to choose from. You will only choose the ONE option that God knows because He knows what you will choose of your own free-will. You are putting the cart before the horse.

No, there are not many options.

If God knows on Monday that I will wear the red shirt on Friday, the blue shirt is not one of the options I could choose. After all, God knows for a fact that there is a 0% chance I will wear that shirt, so that shirt is not an option.

 

[Tiberius]

You never answered this question:
If you must do what God has foreseen you will do what is making you do it, if not God’s foreknowledge?

Yes, I have answered it.

I answered it HERE. I also answered it HERE. And also HERE.

If you again claim I have not answered that question, I will report you for lying, since I most certainly HAVE answered it.

Yet you cannot explain WHY there is only one available option.

Because God knows exactly what will happen.

God isn't saying, "He'll wear a shirt of some particular colour that could range anywhere in the visible spectrum, possibly with a pattern, possibly with no pattern." God knows EXACTLY what I will do down to the smallest detail. There is no room for alternatives.

The knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things. Omniscience is a perfection of God, an attribute of God.

God knows everything that has ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen. God knew all of that at creation and what God knows is unrelated to when it happens in this material world.

Do you even see what you're saying? "What God knows is unrelated to when it happens in this material world"? By that Logic, God CAN'T know what will happen in the future! God can't know what shirt I will wear on Friday because me wearing a shirt is something that happens in the material world, and you just said that God's knowledge is UNRELATED to the material world!

You can make more than one choice, but whatever choice you make will be the ONE CHOICE that God has always known you would make.

Nothing is locked in until it actually happens. Let's say a man called John decided to murder his wife. Once John commits that murder the choice to commit the murder has been made. John chose to murder his wife and committed the act. That event is now locked in. God always knew that John would murder his wife but if John changed his mind at the last minute and decided NOT to murder his wife, God would have known John was going to change his mind.

Absolute garbage.

At any point in the 13 odd billion year history of the universe, God could have said, "I know John is going to murder his wife, and he will not change his mind at the last minute."

Since God now KNOWS that John will make the choice to murder his wife, John can't avoid it. How can John choose to NOT murder his wife is God knew a billion years ago that he would?

I was not saying that YOU were claiming what that God's foreknowledge is what makes you do things, so it is not a strawman.

You seem to think that if God knows what will happen, then it must be God's knowledge that makes it happen, and apparently have trouble moving past that.

Below you said "if God had foreseen" and then you went on to say how everything is predetermined if one thing is predetermined. If God did not predetermine it who did?

Oh, for crying out loud...

Are you just going to rephrase questions and ask them repeatedly now?

Predetermination is a separate subject from free will. Some things are fated/predestined by God and those are predetermined. Many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God.

If something is predetermined it is predetermined by God, and in that case it is not subject to human free will. We cannot choose from different options if something was predetermined by God. We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is.

Yet you cannot explain WHY anything is predetermined.

You said "If God has foreseen that I will meet the woman I will marry tonight when I go to buy groceries, I do NOT have the free choice to stay in and order a pizza" and then you said "I'm not claiming that God's foreknowledge is what makes me do things."

Then what is CAUSING you to do what God has foreseen?

I believe that SOME things that happen to us are predetermined (fated/predestined to happen) but everything else is subject to free will, so it is a choice.

Predetermination and free will are mutually exclusive but both exist.

Nope. Not doing this. You have enough trouble seeing how God omniscience and free will are mutually incompatible. Not starting up with you about predetermination as well.

 

[Sheldon]

You will choose what you want to choose.

I will believe what logic and objective evidence dictates. You ought to try it.

If there is any illusion at all, it is you claiming to know how God operates, when you don't believe in Him.

They're your claims not mine, you're just unable to offer a rational defence of this one, as this particular belief contains a logical contradiction. It seem it is easier for you to repeat this falsehood, than address that contradiction, and this demonstrates another obvious inference.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, there are not many options.

Then you have no choice then.
You apparently are not responsible for anything.

..except believers, of course .. because they DO have a choice.

 

[Kfox]

No, there are not many options.

If God knows on Monday that I will wear the red shirt on Friday, the blue shirt is not one of the options I could choose. After all, God knows for a fact that there is a 0% chance I will wear that shirt, so that shirt is not an option.

I disagree. Just because someone knows what you are gonna do, that knowledge does not prevent you from doing something else.

 

[Sheldon]

Then you have no choice then.

Only according to what you believe.

You apparently are not responsible for anything.

Only according to what you believe. As you have stated unequivocally that "the future is set in stone."

..except believers, of course .. because they DO have a choice.

Logically impossible, according to what you claim to believe.

 

[Sheldon]

I disagree. Just because someone knows what you are gonna do, that knowledge does not prevent you from doing something else.

According to @muhammad_isa it does, he has said we can only choose what a deity knows we will choose, and the future is set in stone, and is therefore logically unchangeable.

 

[muhammad_isa]

According to @muhammad_isa it does..

I can speak for myself.
Please stop misquoting me all the time.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, there are not many options.

If God knows on Monday that I will wear the red shirt on Friday, the blue shirt is not one of the options I could choose. After all, God knows for a fact that there is a 0% chance I will wear that shirt, so that shirt is not an option.

Yes, there are many options.

If God knows on Monday that I will wear the red shirt on Friday, I will wear a red shirt on Friday but if I had CHOSEN to wear a blue shirt on Friday GOD WOULD HAVE KNOWN that I was going to choose to wear a blue shirt on Friday, and if I had CHOSEN to wear a green shirt on Friday GOD WOULD HAVE KNOWN that I was going to choose to wear a green shirt on Friday.

Whatever color shirt I choose will be the color shirt that God HAS ALWAYS KNOWN I will choose.

The essential problem is that you do not understand how God thinks and functions.
You are talking as if God was a human who exists in time but God is not a human who exists in time.

By virtue of omniscience God knows everything that has ever happened and everything that will ever happen, so whatever we choose to do will be what God has always known we would choose.

I explained this to @Nimos in post #294

I suggest that you read what @Brian2 said in this post #287
Brian2 is a Christian and his beliefs about the nature of God and free will are the same as my Baha'i beliefs and they are the same as the beliefs of @muhammad_isa.

Some things never change and the nature of God and reality do not change with a new religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I have answered it.

I answered it HERE. I also answered it HERE. And also HERE.

If you again claim I have not answered that question, I will report you for lying, since I most certainly HAVE answered it.

Fine, it’s settled. You said you don’t know what causes us to do things.

I said: Yet you cannot explain WHY there is only one available option.

Because God knows exactly what will happen.

God isn't saying, "He'll wear a shirt of some particular colour that could range anywhere in the visible spectrum, possibly with a pattern, possibly with no pattern." God knows EXACTLY what I will do down to the smallest detail. There is no room for alternatives.

God is not saying anything and that’s the problem with your argument, as I explained to @Nimos in this post: #294

God knows EXACTLY what you will do down to the smallest detail, but you do not know what God knows because God is not SAYING ANYTHING. God is not saying "Tibs will wear a red shirt."

You will pick whatever color shirt that God knows you will pick, and you have more than one choice.

· If God knows you will choose a RED shirt, then choose a RED shirt (and you won't be able to choose a blue shirt or a green shirt.

· If God knows you will choose a BLUE shirt, then choose a BLUE shirt (and you won't be able to choose a red shirt or a green shirt.

· If God knows you will choose a GREEN shirt, then choose a GREEN shirt (and you won't be able to choose a red shirt or a blue shirt.

Do you even see what you're saying? "What God knows is unrelated to when it happens in this material world"? By that Logic, God CAN'T know what will happen in the future! God can't know what shirt I will wear on Friday because me wearing a shirt is something that happens in the material world, and you just said that God's knowledge is UNRELATED to the material world!

Do you know what I meant by “unrelated?” I meant that what God knows does not CAUSE anything to happen in this material world.

God knows EVERYTHING that will ever happen on this material world, but what God knows does not CAUSE anything to happen in this material world.

As you yourself said: "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" #514

That means that you can make any choice you want to make. You can wear any color shirt you want to wear, as long as it is not in the wash.

Absolute garbage.

At any point in the 13 odd billion year history of the universe, God could have said, "I know John is going to murder his wife, and he will not change his mind at the last minute."

Since God now KNOWS that John will make the choice to murder his wife, John can't avoid it. How can John choose to NOT murder his wife is God knew a billion years ago that he would?

If God knows John will murder his wife, then John will murder his wife

If God knows John will change his mind at the last minute and decide NOT to murder his wife, then John will change his mind at the last minute and decide NOT to murder his wife.

What God knows is not CAUSING John to murder his wife or change his mind at the last minute and decide not to murder his wife.

John will make one of those choices with his free will. God knows which one of those choices John will make because God is all-knowing.

Nope. Not doing this. You have enough trouble seeing how God omniscience and free will are mutually incompatible. Not starting up with you about predetermination as well.

Thank God for small favors. The LAST thing I want to do is discuss predetermination. One subject at a time.

 

[Tiberius]

Then you have no choice then.
You apparently are not responsible for anything.

..except believers, of course .. because they DO have a choice.

I have plenty of choice, since I don't believe there is a God of any kind, let alone one who has 100% accurate knowledge about the future.

It's the believers who DO believe in such a God who are stuck in a worldview that doesn't allow them free will.

 

[Tiberius]

I disagree. Just because someone knows what you are gonna do, that knowledge does not prevent you from doing something else.

If someone knows what I am going to do, and they can't possibly be wrong, how can I choose to do something else?

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, there are many options.

If God knows on Monday that I will wear the red shirt on Friday, I will wear a red shirt on Friday but if I had CHOSEN to wear a blue shirt on Friday GOD WOULD HAVE KNOWN that I was going to choose to wear a blue shirt on Friday, and if I had CHOSEN to wear a green shirt on Friday GOD WOULD HAVE KNOWN that I was going to choose to wear a green shirt on Friday.

Whatever color shirt I choose will be the color shirt that God HAS ALWAYS KNOWN I will choose.

The essential problem is that you do not understand how God thinks and functions.
You are talking as if God was a human who exists in time but God is not a human who exists in time.

By virtue of omniscience God knows everything that has ever happened and everything that will ever happen, so whatever we choose to do will be what God has always known we would choose.

I explained this to @Nimos in post #294

I suggest that you read what @Brian2 said in this post #287
Brian2 is a Christian and his beliefs about the nature of God and free will are the same as my Baha'i beliefs and they are the same as the beliefs of @muhammad_isa.

Some things never change and the nature of God and reality do not change with a new religion.

Yeah, you can say that effect can precede cause all you want, but making that claim doesn't mean it actually makes sense.

 

[Tiberius]

Fine, it’s settled. You said you don’t know what causes us to do things.

Let's hope I will not have to answer you multiple times before you actually accept I have provided an answer again.

God is not saying anything and that’s the problem with your argument, as I explained to @Nimos in this post: #294

God knows EXACTLY what you will do down to the smallest detail, but you do not know what God knows because God is not SAYING ANYTHING. God is not saying "Tibs will wear a red shirt."

You will pick whatever color shirt that God knows you will pick, and you have more than one choice.

· If God knows you will choose a RED shirt, then choose a RED shirt (and you won't be able to choose a blue shirt or a green shirt.

· If God knows you will choose a BLUE shirt, then choose a BLUE shirt (and you won't be able to choose a red shirt or a green shirt.

· If God knows you will choose a GREEN shirt, then choose a GREEN shirt (and you won't be able to choose a red shirt or a blue shirt.

If God isn't saying anything, how do you know he has perfectly accurate knowledge about the future?

If God knows John will murder his wife, then John will murder his wife

If God knows John will change his mind at the last minute and decide NOT to murder his wife, then John will change his mind at the last minute and decide NOT to murder his wife.

What God knows is not CAUSING John to murder his wife or change his mind at the last minute and decide not to murder his wife.

John will make one of those choices with his free will. God knows which one of those choices John will make because God is all-knowing.

It doesn't matter that God's knowledge isn't causing John's actions.

We've been over this.

God's knowledge that John will kill his wife doesn't cause John to kill his wife in the same way that my knowledge that Spock will sacrifice himself in Star Trek 2 isn't what makes Spock sacrifice himself in Star Trek 2.

But, like Spock, John can't choose to do anything different. Spock is NEVER going to decide to jump in an escape pod and blast out of there, after all. Spock's actions are locked in and can't be altered.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's the believers who DO believe in such a God who are stuck in a worldview that doesn't allow them free will.

False.
If you are able to time-travel to the future, you are able to know what choices a person will make. Free-will is a completely separate issue.

 

[Sheldon]

According to @muhammad_isa it does, he has said we can only choose what a deity knows we will choose, and the future is set in stone, and is therefore logically unchangeable.

I can speak for myself.
Please stop misquoting me all the time.

Are you saying you did not claim the future is set in stone? Or that we can only choose what a deity knows we will choose?

I will quote you making both claims if you want.