Tinker Grey
Wanderer
I'm not sure I understand your response. Is your take on God that it is outside of space-time or part of it?
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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God created man and gave man free will to choose.
God did not 'plan' anything for humans because that would be a logical contradiction to allowing man free ill to choose.
God knew what humans would choose but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of human actions.
“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
God did not 'plan' anything for humans because that would be a logical contradiction to allowing man free ill to choose.
God knew what humans would choose but God's foreknowledge is not the cause of human actions.
“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
These two viewpoints are contradictory.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
All you are saying is that either we haven't got free-will or that an omniscient G-d does not exist.
It is not particularly surprising that atheists don't believe in God.
I remain unconvinced that God cannot know what we will choose of our own free-will.
It is only not possible, if you think that the universe must behave in the way that you think it does.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Yeah, pretty much.
It is not particularly surprising that atheists don't believe in God.
GASP! Ya don't say!
You are committing the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, where one paints targets around the bullet holes AFTER they have been made. Makes it very easy to get bulls-eyes every time.
And that's what you are doing here. That's why no matter what one does, you have a way for God to say, "Ah yeah, I always knew that would happen."
It's impossible according to all the things we actually KNOW about the universe. The only way to make it possible is to invent things about God and ignore logic.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No .. not ignore logic.
..just believe that it is possible that God perceives time differently to us. You don't have to believe it, of course.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Not that I believe in this God, but I think it's strange that he could allow people to make free-will choices and still have everything turn out like he wanted.
Tinker Grey
Wanderer
OK. Thanks.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I've said many times that I'm perfectly willing to do that.
But when we follow that reasoning to its conclusion, we get things that don't match reality.
God sees all of time at once? Okay, let's make that assumption. It's like how I can look at a ruler and see the whole length at once, if the ruler represents time.
But then why can't God come and say to you on Monday what I'm going to do on Friday? When we get to that, you have to make excuses. "People can't understand God." "If God came and talked to people, it would blow their little mortal minds." That kind of thing. Excuses, excuses. It's nothing more than you invent a story, and then you have to scramble to fill in the plot holes that the story has rather than just saying, "Well, maybe the story's just wrong."
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Clearly, G-d only communicates with certain people..
..and usually through angels.
Why do you think that G-d should talk to people willy-nilly?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Why not? It appears that you believe that God is neither omnipotent nor just.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Clearly some people claim a deity is communicating with them, but this is an entirely subjective anecdotal claim. I see no objective difference between it and people who claim to have been beamed aboard alien spacecraft when no one was around to verify it.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
How do you know God talks to anybody at all? How is that clear? And where can I find an angel to verify their existence?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I believe that G-d communicated with some prophets/messengers.
Not many people have "angelic" experiences, but I believe we will all one day see the angel of death.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Why do you believe that?
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Why do you not believe it?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of all the war and killing and suffering that has resulted from God relying on people to spread his message and they've been misinterpreted to result in all these different religious beliefs because God doesn't want to just talk to everyone and tell them directly...