Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

What is it about atheists and the word claim? Why do they think that everything believers explain to them is a claim?

Because you are claiming that the world is a certain way.

Mr B was a messenger from God. That is a claim.

Mr B fulfilled Biblical prophecies. That is another claim.

 

[Truthseeker]

Why would any Baha'is be better able to verify that the prophecies were fulfilled than Bill Sears? Sears is not infallible but we are not infallible either. Why would we know more than Sears given he was a Christian for much of his life and he researched the fulfillment of those prophecies for 7 years? It would just be our ego that says we know more than him.

I agree with CG Didymus. Some Baha'is I know are dubious about that book. I won't research myself because prophecies are not important.

 

[Truthseeker]

And what, pray tell, is this reason?

Would it be, "Because that's one way I can get my religious faith and science to agree?"

I mean, Newton, when he wasn't coming up with gravity, was really into alchemy, trying to change lead into gold. Should I conclude he also knew about nuclear reactions as an attempt to justify his efforts? Or should I conclude that he just got that bit wrong?

There are other reasons other than what you said.

 

[joelr]

They thought this ether was physical. for 'Abdu'l-Baha it was not physical. I took a course in electricity and magnetism in college, and there is a vibration that produces electricity and magnetism. Heat is infrared light.

Yes let's just say I understand modern physics.

In his statement that you provided he compares the ether to light, heat and so on. Light and the other things mentioned are physical. He included the ether in this group. So did science. He clearly thought the ether was a real thing in the same sense that scientists did. I already said this and it's correct. He was riffing off known science knowledge. Clearly just a man, not a messenger of any God.
There is no evidence for God anyways. First one has to demonstrate a God?

 

[joelr]

I don't see that at all. I think you are not seeing clearly.

Maybe that's why you find this impressive?
In the first 2 quotes the ether is mentioned as the same thing science thought it was. a background field that light flowed through. Then the apologist says that he was actually saying the ether was "non-physical" as in some spiritual device. He says the ether is a "reality of the intellect" as in non-physical.
BUT, then he compares the ether to light, heat....which are not spiritual but physical things. So he contradicts himself.

This is very clear. But the actual writings speak of the ether as the same field science thought it was.

This talk of the ether being "not really the science ether but a spirit ether" is after the fact tapdance apologetics.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The trouble is that it demeans anyone who does not share your point of view.

I personally see It as something we all have to consider.

I do not think it wise to use these passages against individuals, but I also see they need to be aware of them, if the keep demanding proof. It could be this is why objective proof can not be found, the wrong eyes and ears are being used.

Regards Tony

 

[joelr]

The early astronomers that are referred to I think are Greek. The Moslems studied Greek knowledge extensively. I haven't checked, but there could be seven heavens under the Greeks, but the Shi'ah Moslems believed that Christ ascended to the fourth heaven. I trust the Guardian. Or maybe they believed in four heavens. The Guardian was knowledgeable.

Oh astronomers. I thought astronauts.
Seven heavens is from Mesopotamian cosmology. The Israelites used a version of it. There is no Christian myth that Jesus went to the 4th heaven. The Christian myths are Jesus went to rule in the celestial version of the Jewish temple. Everything on earth had a celestial version.

Believe it or not it turns out there are zero heavens and its' just outer space above the Earth.
These heavens in Jewish cosmology were literally above the Earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Heavens

 

[joelr]

I don't care what you think about this stuff anymore. There are more productive conversations I could have. I am spending too much time with your efforts to tear down.

You do not have to care about what is true. I do. I am always willing to evaluate evidence.

You will never believe anyway, and others who see this this will see your how misguided you are only interested in tearing down, and will never try to see my point of view.

It is not about your point of view. It's about what the evidence presents. But I do see your point of view, that is what I'm responding to.
If someone sees this as misguided then I am always willing to see evidence that it is in fact misguided. You have not put forth any type of evidence that I am misguided.
This demonstrates the difference, you are only interested in your point of view. I am interested in what is true and what can be demonstrated.
I will believe when there is a reason to believe that is outside of my feelings, hopes and wishful thinking.

"Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.”

You quote this but you don't mean it. What you mean is the truth has to be the same as yours. I evaluate evidence honestly and you call me misguided. But continue to be unable to explain why? Then expect others to magically just agree with you when all you have shown is confirmation bias?

 

[joelr]

To me, He means Contagious in a sense that cancer gets spread throughout the body. For example someone who has thyroid cancer, can get brain cancer or other types of cancer, because the cancer cells move through the blood stream to other locations of body. You are reading Abdu'l-Baha statements in a different way.

When you get the flu make sure to stay away from yourself because you are contagious.



"(of a disease) spread from one person or organism to another by direct or indirect contact."

This is pretty bad, did you think this through? You are kind of proving my point here.

But at that time it was already known that cancer spread (in the same person). So why would he state something already known but say it using the wrong word? He wasn't dumb or illiterate. He knew what contagious meant. No one ever used the word contagious to mean a disease spreads in the body? He was a good writer.
Why would he say even healthy people have to worry? He meant cancer is contagious like a flu and even healthy people can catch it. This is pretty straightforward.
He was saying this as if it wasn't known. The reason he did this is because medical science wasn't sure yet about the pathology of cancer so it was possible it could be contagious.

 

[Tiberius]

There are other reasons other than what you said.

Which you are apparently keeping to yourself. Why don't you tell us what they are and we'll see if they hold water.

 

[Tiberius]

I personally see It as something we all have to consider.

I do not think it wise to use these passages against individuals, but I also see they need to be aware of them, if the keep demanding proof. It could be this is why objective proof can not be found, the wrong eyes and ears are being used.

Regards Tony

And that's why you don't believe I can turn into an eagle. You are using the wrong eyes and ears.

Seriously, if I roll my eyes any harder, I'd be able to see my own brain.

 

[Truthseeker]

Which you are apparently keeping to yourself. Why don't you tell us what they are and we'll see if they hold water.

You mean, so you take potshots at it. I know your ilk. I've had enough of that kind of game. I choose to not try to prove anything to you because I believe it is useless, plus it would cause me further aggravation. I only want to converse with those who are sincere.

 

[CG Didymus]

I agree with CG Didymus. Some Baha'is I know are dubious about that book. I won't research myself because prophecies are not important.

Where does the claim come from? Did Baha'u'llah say that he fulfilled all the prophecies? And did he say he was the promised one of all the religions? But when it comes to "prophecies", I don't believe the ones in the gospel of Matthew either. The virgin birth one being the main one, but he goes into all kind of things... a prophecy predicting Herod having the children killed in Bethlehem... that Jesus would be called a Nazarene... that Jesus went to Egypt. All easily made up and not mentioned by anyone else. And most all of them are just one verse, so they're all taken out of context. I didn't bother checking them out for myself for a long time, but when I did, that was a blow to my trust in Christianity. And Christianity struck a blow to my trust of what the Baha'i Faith was saying.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I agree with CG Didymus. Some Baha'is I know are dubious about that book. I won't research myself because prophecies are not important.

Horror of horrors. You seem to be a recalcitrant Bahai, a heretic Bahai, because nearly all other Bahais insist that Bahaollah's fulfilling prophecies in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism and Buddhism, is of utmost importance. You should better keep quiet lest your HoJ listens and marks you as a breaker of covenant. You also differ from what Abdul Baha or Shoghi said.

I only want to converse with those who are sincere.

What do you mean by 'sincere'? In what way members of RF not sincere? Do you think having views different from you makes one insincere? Why do you want no one to question you and tamely agree with your views? RF, fazlullahi, is an open internet forum, and not a Bahai web-site.

You mean, so you take potshots at it.

Yeah, if atheists encounter what they consider silly arguments, some do take pot-shots at it.

 

[Truthseeker]

Some fulfilled prophecies for Jesus are suspect, I agree. They are in Matthew mostly. Prophecies claimed to be fulfilled by someone who is fallible. I don't base my faith today on all of the prophecies fulfilled in Thief in The Night. My faith is built else where. Examining Baha'u'llah's life and circumstances to see if it is likely at all for Him to be deluded, crazy, or a liar. Checking carefully for consistency within the Writings. The Writings have the feel of being from God. I feel their potency. Checking on compatibility with the teachings of other named as Manifestation of God also. Do the Writings appear to be good for mankind in this age?

Living a moral life also helps to feel the inspiration and good of the Writings.

 

[Trailblazer]

Things that are objective and real do not have this happen.

If they did, then we'd see that people would get differing results for the speed of light based on their childhood.

The fact that people have different perspectives so they all come to different conclusions in no way means that spiritual truth and God are not real. Scientific facts cannot be compared to religious truths without committing the fallacy of false equivalence.

Because a belief that people can find objective truth that way is wrong.

What is objective truth?

And as I have said, you need to show that something exists before you go looking for a way to measure it.

I am not trying to measure anything. I just look at the evidence to determine if it exists.

But that's exactly what you have done. You believed the claims made by Baha'is, and then you went to find a method of finding evidence that would support what you believed.

That is another big fat straw man. I did nothing of the sort. You cannot remove your own bias long enough to even read and understand what I am saying, you keep projecting your bias onto me. It is not even worth responding to because I already explained how I became a Baha'i in the other post where you made a straw man.

Does your faith NOT provide any criteria?

My faith does have criteria but that list was made by me.

But the wind and light could still be detected before we had the tools to measure them. Your God does not.

How do you know? Many people say they detect God all around them and to them God is just as real as the wind and light. But spiritual detection is not the same as physical detection.

That's about the rudest and most arrogant thing you've ever said to me.

You read into that. All I was saying is that you did not see what was there. There is nothing rude or arrogant about that. Did you even use the method I suggested you use and then find nothing there?

You're not doing yourself any favours here, you know.

I am just being honest and since I am not trying to win a debate it hardly matters.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where does the claim come from? Did Baha'u'llah say that he fulfilled all the prophecies? And did he say he was the promised one of all the religions? But when it comes to "prophecies", I don't believe the ones in the gospel of Matthew either. The virgin birth one being the main one, but he goes into all kind of things... a prophecy predicting Herod having the children killed in Bethlehem... that Jesus would be called a Nazarene... that Jesus went to Egypt. All easily made up and not mentioned by anyone else. And most all of them are just one verse, so they're all taken out of context. I didn't bother checking them out for myself for a long time, but when I did, that was a blow to my trust in Christianity. And Christianity struck a blow to my trust of what the Baha'i Faith was saying.

Baha'u'llah made it very clear CG.

"... Give ear to His voice calling aloud over land and sea, announcing to all mankind the advent of this Revelation—a Revelation through the agency of which the Tongue of Grandeur is now proclaiming: ‘Lo, the sacred Pledge hath been fulfilled, for He, the Promised One, is come!’ ” “The voice of the Son of Man is calling aloud from the sacred vale: ‘Here am I, here am I, O God my God!’ … whilst from the Burning Bush breaketh forth the cry: ‘Lo, the Desire of the world is made manifest in His transcendent glory!’ The Father hath come. That which ye were promised in the Kingdom of God is fulfilled. This is the Word which the Son veiled when He said to those around Him that at that time they could not bear it… Verily the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth… He is the One Who glorified the Son and exalted His Cause…” “The Comforter Whose advent all the scriptures have promised is now come that He may reveal unto you all knowledge and wisdom. Seek Him over the entire surface of the earth, haply ye may find Him.”

".. The time fore-ordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause..."

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Which you are apparently keeping to yourself. Why don't you tell us what they are and we'll see if they hold water.

I always suspect that there are reasons other than religion which makes Bahais post in the forums with such tenacity. They hardly even sleep or take break for food, as if their livelihood depends upon making posts.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see a whole bunch of handwavium there.

A much simpler explanation is easy to find. All religion is bunk.

It is simple for you because it allows you to dispense with religion but it is a completely illogical conclusion, given that religion has been the cause of all great civilizations.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.

We will therefore investigate religion, seeking from an unprejudiced standpoint to discover whether it is the source of illumination, the cause of development and the animating impulse of all human advancement. We will investigate independently, free from the restrictions of dogmatic beliefs, blind imitations of ancestral forms, and the influence of mere human opinion; for as we enter this question we will find some who declare that religion is a cause of uplift and betterment in the world, while others assert just as positively that it is a detriment and a source of degradation to mankind. We must give these questions thorough and impartial consideration so that no doubt or uncertainty may linger in our minds regarding them.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 270

The fact that you can come up with elaborate and convoluted explanations to explain away problems means nothing. I can come up with as many explanations as you want to explain the mistakes in Star Trek, but that doesn't mean that Star Trek is real.

My explanation was not convoluted, it was completely logical and based upon historical facts, but because of your bias against religion your logical reasoning does not work properly. Your bias is like an impenetrable wall.

It's also exactly what we'd expect to see if religion was bunk. And religion being bunk is a much simpler explanation than the contortionist act your explanation has to go through.

Please see above.

Yes, you cited them to show that God wanted to establish a new religion. I figured that you wanted me to accept that the claims were true, because if not, I figured you wouldn't waste my time posting them.

So were you presenting the claims as true, or were you wasting my time?

The problem is that those were not claims. Your bias has you thinking everything I post from Baha'u'llah's Writings is claims. The only reason I posted that was to show what Baha'u'llah wrote about the fundamental purpose of religion so you could hopefully see how that purpose is no longer being met by the older religions, but you have to read the content and think about what the older religions are doing and not doing in order to figure that out. With that in mind, here is the passage again. the Great Being is God.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world’s religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes. Let them, after meditating on its needs, take counsel together and, through anxious and full deliberation, administer to a diseased and sorely-afflicted world the remedy it requireth….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 215-216

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that's why you don't believe I can turn into an eagle. You are using the wrong eyes and ears.

Seriously, if I roll my eyes any harder, I'd be able to see my own brain.

That is what is said. Your choice.

Inner Eye

Could ye apprehend with what wonders of My munificence and bounty I have willed to entrust your souls, ye would, of a truth, rid yourselves of attachment to all created things, and would gain a true knowledge of your own selves -- a knowledge which is the same as the comprehension of Mine own Being. Ye would find yourselves independent of all else but Me, and would perceive, with your inner and outer eye, and as manifest as the revelation of My effulgent Name, the seas of My loving-kindness and bounty moving within you.

Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 326-327

In the Bible the prophet Isaiah said:

You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ This people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.

Regards