Athiests and Agnostics, your decisive moment

[Uberpod]

Yeah but what actually makes the idea of believing in God unique is that it is shared by all the children.

For example, I know a child who thought that every one would see the word with the color of his eyes. Did I believe in that? NO. Did anyone else shared this view? maybe little.

I used to think that when I turn off the lights, objects will start moving. Does anyone believe in that? perhaps few.

Do all children believe that there is someone who created the universe and is in control? I think yes.


So you studied psychology, history, sociology, and other sciences. What about religion?

True, Children have magical thinking. They usually grow up and their brains can process information more logically. Why the majority of adults retain supernatural beliefs is the real question.

 

[Sabour]

Bible stories were not believable for me. Noah's Ark, the global flood, the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, miracles, virgin birth, resurrection, etc. None of it was believable. I don't remember working that out, but I do remember working out the impossibility of Santa claus at around 5 by trying to mathematically figure out how fast he would have to be moving to visit billions of people in a single night.

Well actually I think you can't work on what is being taught in the bible. As a muslim I believe in these stories but I think each story differs from that of the bible in some way.

No, none of the experiences of any of the religious people I knew made any more sense to me than the others.

Is this what makes you an atheist now, apart from the plots you told me before ?

 

[icehorse]

From the OP:

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.
The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?
Appreciate your responses.

As a kid I had to go to church sometimes. But my young brain didn't think too much about philosophy, and mortality, and religion. I suspect that if you don't bring these topics up to kids, they don't think about them too much until later in life.

I was fortunate to attend good schools, and it seemed very natural to agree with ideas like:

- value good evidence
- value logical discussion
- value parsimony

If these become important values to a young person I don't think religion will hold up well to scrutiny.

I will say that I do hold a tiny hope that something like "the force" from Star Wars might be true. This is slightly supported by the idea that energy is not destroyed. It's hard for me to believe that my consciousness is 100%, a long-winded chemical reaction.

But holding out some small hope for "the force", doesn't give man-made religion and clergy any sort of credibility.

 

[Alceste]

Well actually I think you can't work on what is being taught in the bible. As a muslim I believe in these stories but I think each story differs from that of the bible in some way.



Is this what makes you an atheist now, apart from the plots you told me before ?

The stories muslims believe are no more persuasive to me than the ones Christians believe.

My experience didn't make me an atheist. I never believed the stories, even as a child. What my experience did was provide a reasonable hypothesis as to why all these people with contradictory beliefs tend to perceive evidence that their beliefs are true.

So I did not go from theist to atheist. I went from a baffled atheist with no idea why anyone believes obvious nonsense to an atheist with an understanding that theists (and the rest of us too) see and experience pretty much what they expect to see and experience.

 

[Sabour]

LOL!

Well, I do consider all religions containing concepts that are useful to some degree here and there, so eventually I probably will study Islam a bit more. The result most likely will be a amalgam of views that fit. The Bible tells us to listen to everything, but only take what's good. I think that's a good guideline, but hard to follow.

I though Christianity is about "faith" and "not asking question" because that would "wreck your faith".. NO ?

You're just a kid!!!

And I will remain like this in your eyes even when I will be 40

I have a 24 year old son. Actually, I have 5 kids. The oldest turned 26.

I wish you and them a happy life. I do remember you said that on one of the threads.

I never felt like I left it, but rather that it left me. The image I had of God from my upbringing and different churches, preachers, books, etc, didn't fit my experiences. We had a terrible accident and my family got hurt. In my search to understand God better, I lost my Christian faith. So for 10 years, I was an unbeliever and very anti-religious. Now, I think I've calmed down a bit and finding some middleground that works. In a sense, I consider myself an atheist still, and yet spiritual and have a "god" view that fits me better, and fits science (in my opinion).

[/QUOTE]

Aha I see. I think I can recommend you a bit of a two long videos about a story of a christian who became a Muslim and the reasons he did that. However, I understand you may not be interested at the moment. So IF you had the interest in it please tell me.

 

[Sabour]

True, Children have magical thinking. They usually grow up and their brains can process information more logically. Why the majority of adults retain supernatural beliefs is the real question.

Magical thinking would be that which is not shared by all children. Nature would be shared by all children. I think you would take the stand that not all children believe in that?

Personally my answer would be that this in large depends on the religion which one is following of whether it answers all the question that are need an answer to or not.

 

[Alceste]

Magical thinking would be that which is not shared by all children. Nature would be shared by all children. I think you would take the stand that not all children believe in that?

Personally my answer would be that this in large depends on the religion which one is following of whether it answers all the question that are need an answer to or not.

No, magical thinking is the belief that the phenomena around you are caused by magic rather than naturalistic cause and effect.

Pretty much all children of a certain age believe mummy is psychic, and can see inside of a closed box. Then they grow out of it as they learn that mummy's intuitive powers are limited by her own direct knowledge and experience.

 

[Sabour]

As a kid I had to go to church sometimes. But my young brain didn't think too much about philosophy, and mortality, and religion. I suspect that if you don't bring these topics up to kids, they don't think about them too much until later in life.

I hoped to know that in our other thread we are having a discussion in. I think that would have came out handy.

I was fortunate to attend good schools, and it seemed very natural to agree with ideas like:

- value good evidence
- value logical discussion
- value parsimony

I seem to agree with these points. What is holding me back is the meaning of the last word.

If these become important values to a young person I don't think religion will hold up well to scrutiny.

This depends on the religion in hand

But holding out some small hope for "the force", doesn't give man-made religion and clergy any sort of credibility.

Sometimes, hope will lead us to our way if directed properly.

 

[Ouroboros]

I though Christianity is about "faith" and "not asking question" because that would "wreck your faith".. NO ?

That's right. I belonged to a extreme fundamentalist Church where questioning was strongly discouraged.

Having my life turned upside down made it hard not to. Sometimes, we have to get a shock before we look into new ideas.

And I will remain like this in your eyes even when I will be 40

Of course. I'll be close to 70 then! You'll still be a young whippersnapper at 40. LOL!

I wish you and them a happy life. I do remember you said that on one of the threads.

Thank you. :bow:

Aha I see. I think I can recommend you a bit of a two long videos about a story of a christian who became a Muslim and the reasons he did that. However, I understand you may not be interested at the moment. So IF you had the interest in it please tell me.

Not interested today, but maybe some time in the future. I'll keep your offer in mind.

 

[Sabour]

The stories muslims believe are no more persuasive to me than the ones Christians believe.

My experience didn't make me an atheist. I never believed the stories, even as a child. What my experience did was provide a reasonable hypothesis as to why all these people with contradictory beliefs tend to perceive evidence that their beliefs are true.

So I did not go from theist to atheist. I went from a baffled atheist with no idea why anyone believes obvious nonsense to an atheist with an understanding that theists (and the rest of us too) see and experience pretty much what they expect to see and experience.

Well when we are talking about something that is in the past, miracles to prophets. There isn't to much persuasion to take place. Rather there is credibility of who is telling the story.
As Muslims we believe that Allah told us that. Well this seems as a credible source.

But I am crazy, how come God is telling us? Through the Quraan which is not tempered with for 1400 years.

What is the evidence? It can be easily told whether a book is the word of God or it is the writing of a man who lived in the seventh century.

This is what makes me think that Islamic version is more "persuasive".


So I guess theists for you is all about brainwashing.

By the way, I have respect for atheists, but in varying degrees.

 

[Sabour]

That's right. I belonged to a extreme fundamentalist Church where questioning was strongly discouraged.

Having my life turned upside down made it hard not to. Sometimes, we have to get a shock before we look into new ideas.


Of course. I'll be close to 70 then! You'll still be a young whippersnapper at 40. LOL!


Thank you. :bow:


Not interested today, but maybe some time in the future. I'll keep your offer in mind.

Besides that, I am younger than your son.

I can't ask for more than that

 

[Alceste]

Well when we are talking about something that is in the past, miracles to prophets. There isn't to much persuasion to take place. Rather there is credibility of who is telling the story.
As Muslims we believe that Allah told us that. Well this seems as a credible source.

But I am crazy, how come God is telling us? Through the Quraan which is not tempered with for 1400 years.

What is the evidence? It can be easily told whether a book is the word of God or it is the writing of a man who lived in the seventh century.

This is what makes me think that Islamic version is more "persuasive".


So I guess theists for you is all about brainwashing.

By the way, I have respect for atheists, but in varying degrees.

Not brainwashing. Theism is based on two very common logical fallacies: appeal to authority and appeal to popularity.

I'm a natural empiricist. I can not believe anything based on either of those foundations - it's simply not in my nature and never was. That's how it came to pass that I went to church for 13 years and never really realized some folks believed the stories they were telling there are literally true.

It's also not in my nature to believe something just because it's written down in a book. Doesn't matter who wrote it or how old it is. If one is looking for spiritual wisdom in a book, there are much better books out there than the Bible or the Koran. The Tao te Ching is my personal favorite, but different people will find what they are looking for in different books.

 

[Sabour]

Not brainwashing. Theism is based on two very common logical fallacies: appeal to authority and appeal to popularity.

I'm a natural empiricist. I can not believe anything based on either of those foundations - it's simply not in my nature and never was. That's how it came to pass that I went to church for 13 years and never really realized some folks believed the stories they were telling there are literally true.

It's also not in my nature to believe something just because it's written down in a book. Doesn't matter who wrote it or how old it is. If one is looking for spiritual wisdom in a book, there are much better books out there than the Bible or the Koran. The Tao te Ching is my personal favorite, but different people will find what they are looking for in different books.

Well I am not looking for spiritual wisdom. I am looking for spiritual truth. This means I would take a look at the books which claim to be not from Men. That is my test basis. I don't look at which has the strangest ideas.

 

[Alceste]

Well I am not looking for spiritual wisdom. I am looking for spiritual truth. This means I would take a look at the books which claim to be not from Men. That is my test basis. I don't look at which has the strangest ideas.

The strangest ideas? I'm not sure what you mean. The ideas in the TTC appeal to me because they are basically the same ideas that had come to me in that moment on the beach. I was excited to discover that specific book because it showed me I was not the only person to ever perceive the world in that particular way. That was reassuring, since an experience like that can be somewhat isolating.

In my view, everything comes from Man. Even the Bible and the Koran. If God exists, she's not a writer. And if she exists and writes, then she probably writes ALL the books, not just one.

 

[LuisDantas]

The assumption that people "become" atheist and/or agnostic as opposed to having always been (at least until being taught about the concept of god) always sounded odd to me.

Am not sure I understand your stand?

You seem to expect people to have both a reason and a moment for "becoming" atheistic. That is an odd notion to have, in my opinion. Atheism is simply so natural.

That... is just not really at all obvious, to put it mildly.

Everything has an order. It is that simple.

I dont know if you read this, but I gave an example like if you throw rocks ten times and person A came to study the positions.

If you threw them randomly in the ten times, than "A" will be clueless if he tried to observe their movement.

But if you took time to arrange them in a certain pattern when you throw them, then "A" would know the pattern and be able to predict the next position of the rocks.

What you are saying is that existence is natural laws exist, and that you understand as evidence of a Creator God?

You are free to think so, of course, but I really don't see why one would, and certainly not why one should.

I truly think that is just an esthetical inclination of yours.

Whoa there. Why would anyone need a reason to rule out the existence of God as a "possibility"? You are assuming an awful lot of unlikely things at once, 0ne-answer!

Because it is the only explanation of things.

That may be a belief you feel the urge to hold for whatever reason, but there is no need for an explanation for "things", at least that I am aware of, so your stance is a bit puzzling to me.

Maybe it is due to a Muslim upbringing, I don't know. Word got me that Muslims generally believe (and teach and are taught, I must assume) that all people are born Muslim and therefore theistic.

You are right.

"Born muslims" means that they are born as believer in God. It doesn't mean that they automatically know everything about Islam.

That is an odd belief to hold, as well. I'm very certain that I never believed in God, and I don't think it is quite respectful to assume that newborns will believe in God, either.

It may be very well-meaning for certain people, particularly if they have been told from a young age that it is so. But it is not truly respectful, far as I can understand it.

That, I must say, is completely unsupported by facts far as I can tell, and a very unfortunate belief in that it clouds understanding of what both theism and atheism truly mean. Even more important is that such a belief implies actual meanings to theism and atheism that just aren't there. They are both actually very unimportant, of very little consequence except those created by social reaction and expectations.

Well I didn't want to repeat what all people on this forums discuss like why God exists and what are the proofs because I think you all dealt with that. And what did you mean by implying meaning to atheism and theism?

Atheism and theism are at their cores just giving specific, direct answers to a question that is ultimately never truly answerable (among other reasons, because the object of the question is also undefined).

They are just stances about the desire to believe in some sort of deity, albeit often presented almost as if they were models or competing ideas about the nature of reality.

Nor do they have a lot of moral meaning, either. Atheism does not rule out immorality, nor does theism. They just have different approaches to the matter and correspondingly different challenges to overcome. Morality itself is deity-independent, or at least it is supposed to be.

If you do, then I don't expect anyone will convince you otherwise.

If you're hinting that I don't listen and consider things, than you are wrong.

You have reached the premises that make the OP possible somehow, so maybe that is simply a difficult matter for you to understand and/or accept. I don't know.

What I do know is that the situation you are asking about is completely fictional and unrealistic by my sincere understanding.

Actually, I rarely see someone on this forums answering questions directly. I don't know if this is because of confusion or not. But I tend to be as clear as possible when I answer questions. Why is that? Because things are clear to me.

Part of it may be that you use a lot of premises, some of them difficult to understand, others difficult to deny without being dismissive.

I approach everything with an open mind. And I make sure to take a look outside the box every while.

To your credit, you are certainly showing it.

 

[Willamena]

You seem to expect people to have both a reason and a moment for "becoming" atheistic. That is an odd notion to have, in my opinion. Atheism is simply so natural.

Only if god/gods is also natural. Atheism is an arguable position on god/gods.

 

[LuisDantas]

Only if god/gods is also natural. Atheism is an arguable position on god/gods.

By your understanding of word, is that what you mean?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well I am not looking for spiritual wisdom. I am looking for spiritual truth. This means I would take a look at the books which claim to be not from Men. That is my test basis. I don't look at which has the strangest ideas.

I guess I will never understand why people expect to find truth as opposed to inspiration in such books.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well considering your second part, I do believe that if all children were born as believers, that is a sign worth considering.

It could certainly be considered, but I'd chalk it up to a result of evolution.
Such a condition could serve human survival that infants & young children
would seek out authority for meaning, survival & training. Also to consider
is that many who rejected supernatural explanations did so when they matured.

But I guess that can't be tested.

I did test it.
And it passed.

 

[Mister_T]

Yeah, but nothing was taught is part of the belief. So you were not taught anything, which is teaching nothing.

No, you're twisting things here. There was no teaching of anything at all, they just simply left me to my own devices. If a kid goes to school and you don't teach him math, you are not teaching him how not to learn math.

Lol. What I meant that there might be something else one doesn't know.

Like setting the rules saying if God existed things would be like that doesn't make sense for me. It is about testing the whole "theory" or whatever you call it and seeing if it makes sense.

I did test the theory according to the bible (faith) and it didn't work out or make sense. Whether it works that way for everyone is another story, but for me that's they way it turned out and I am left with my present conclusions as a result.