Athiests and Agnostics, your decisive moment

[Vinayaka]

I don't think people are born one way or another. Having worked with children for a long time, I believe they don't actually believe much at all, religion wise. Yes, they can parrot their parents. (or not if parents don't care either way) but they really don't have the ability to think about such abstractions as God.

At puberty, all that changes, (they garner a new ability called formal thought') and then they start to analyse the experiences, or try in some way to understand them. Then friends, parents, their environment, but also their experiences do have influence. So there may be a ha! moments, or a ha! periods, and these may allow them to make a personal conclusion one way or the other.

So there may well be a decisive moment in there somewhere, but to say one conclusion is right or wrong for everyone, based on your personal conclusion, is a bit presumptious, in either direction.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm a theist but I don't believe everyone is born believing in some god. I don't think we're born believing in anything. Luckily, my Gods don't give a damn if you believe in Them or not. They have no problems with atheism and don't need anything from humans, anyway. They're not petty and narcissistic. In fact, I think They probably encourage atheism at some points if They view it as conducive to human empowerment and enlightenment. I've experienced losses of faith and non-belief at various points in my spiritual journey and I know I've come out all the better for it. Atheism can be a very useful tool. So I am sympathetic to atheists and support them.

 

[Ingledsva]

Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

Most of my family on one side, and my parents, were Catholic.


I remember from a very-very early age - not believing the religious things they were trying to teach me. I did love the Pagan ceremony though. The candles, incense, chanting, etc.


They sent me to all the religious education crap, - it obviously didn't stick.


Luckily, on the other side, my Grandmother was a Librarian, and I was pretty much raised in her Library, reading everything I could get my hands on.


I read one particular magazine a lot. It had an ad in every issue, that was of a huge old tome, horry with age and spider webs, and with a lock and key.

It was labeled Forbidden Knowledge, and said at the bottom that you had to be 18 to send for their literature. I was so disappointed that I was going to have to wait over 10 years before I could send for that forbidden knowledge.

LOL! I knew clear back then that this was what I wanted to learn about. I read my way through the religions and philosophies sections of the library first, and then just spread out from there. Archaeology ended up being my favorite subject, especially the "so-called" anomalous archaeological material, buried in museum basements by religion of Abraham archaeologists. Hence my studies.


It is quite funny actually that Erich Von Daniken's books actually got me interested in Archaeology. LOL! He called the Baghdad Battery - a battery - very early, and was called a quack for it. Then many years later they did an - oh my - and decided it really was a battery. LOL.



*

 

[Aupmanyav]

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

POE. We do not know, but that is not the reason to accept existence of any God or Goddess. Science is working on that.

 

[LuisDantas]

The assumption that people "become" atheist and/or agnostic as opposed to having always been (at least until being taught about the concept of god) always sounded odd to me.

 

[LuisDantas]

But the order in which this universe is running requires intelligence.

That... is just not really at all obvious, to put it mildly.

What is the main reason behind that? Did you "consider" that God would exist at any moment? And if no what ruled out that possibility ?

Whoa there. Why would anyone need a reason to rule out the existence of God as a "possibility"? You are assuming an awful lot of unlikely things at once, 0ne-answer!

Maybe it is due to a Muslim upbringing, I don't know. Word got me that Muslims generally believe (and teach and are taught, I must assume) that all people are born Muslim and therefore theistic.

That, I must say, is completely unsupported by facts far as I can tell, and a very unfortunate belief in that it clouds understanding of what both theism and atheism truly mean. Even more important is that such a belief implies actual meanings to theism and atheism that just aren't there. They are both actually very unimportant, of very little consequence except those created by social reaction and expectations.

Do all children believe that there is someone who created the universe and is in control? I think yes.

If you do, then I don't expect anyone will convince you otherwise.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

just a minute, how would all be correct if there are major difference between them?

For instance, Christianity says believe Jesus peace be upon him as your savior and you go to heaven. Islam says it is about belief and righteous deeds.

Christianity says trinity and "begotten son", Islam says God is One.

In addition, if someone is forcing another about a concept, it doesn't mean it is wrong.




Still I didn't an answer.

Sorry but let me put it this way, What evidence are you waiting to see that God exists?

So I guess it is the classical "you have to believe" answer Christians give.
In addition to "don't let a little knowledge wreck you faith".

Someone else covered the first point, but to reiterate - it's exactly my point that the idea of all religious-based spiritual/personal/emotional experiences being true is absurd. Thus, these experiences are unreliable as they lead different people to contradictory conclusions.

For the evidence part, I would want a discovery to be made that undermines the naturalistic worldview. So, a concrete example of irreducible complexity (the holy grail of the intelligent design community), rabbit bones in Precambrian rock etc. I've yet to meet a religious argument on this score that wasn't absurd or based on a huge misapprehension. Maybe making an appearance and demonstrating his Omni-prowess would also be compelling, provided it could be objectively monitored. In a nutshell, any iota of objective evidence would be worth mulling over, but it is my view that this is entirely lacking.

And on the knowledge point, I do indeed think it should be a warning sign to people of any religion or creed to be told free inquiry is a bad thing.

 

[Sabour]

Correct. My family was (is) quite religious.


Struggles and unfairness in life. I realized my image of God was wrong.


I didn't decide. I just realized over time that my view of God had to change, and while doing so I couldn't find a God-image that fit my experiences, so the doubt built until one day I look in the mirror and it dawned on me that I didn't believe in God at all. It was essentially a progress of many years of struggle to keep faith in a God, but failed. I even prayed to God to show himself or prove himself to me. Now I know that God isn't a person, but God is Everything. The whole. The All. God doesn't dictated out lives or tell us how to live. It is up to us, humanity, to find what is good and honorable.

How come you said you didn't believe in God at all and then you said now you know that God is everything.
Anything that I am missing?

 

[Sabour]

I remember when I was a kid I believed vampires were real.

Yeah, but not everybody believed that. This is the difference

 

[Sabour]

When I learned of the concept of God and found it weird, I guess.

I don't think I have ever been a theist, although I may have half-heartedly attempted to at some point. My childhood was replete with attempts at attaining acceptance by unhealthy means.

Are they the means which drove you not to believe

 

[Sabour]

You might want to go back as start with studying some basic biology.

What are the concepts about Biology you are hinting at?

 

[Sabour]

What is mysterious is that so many people can't see why they accept only one of the many fictional accounts describing an OMNIMAX god like Allah. If everyone realized that the prophets all have one thing in common, a human source, there wouldn't be any Abrahamic religion.

Tom

Well okay, but that possibility you mentioned for me is zero.

 

[Sabour]

Not sure if you understand the concept of "secular." My parents had their own personal beliefs, they just never belonged to any specific organization and they never pushed any beliefs on me, thus nothing was being taught.

Yeah, but nothing was taught is part of the belief. So you were not taught anything, which is teaching nothing.

More along the lines of if a personal god existed, there wouldn't be all the suffering and injustice happening to good people and people that have faith in him.

No. That is only one piece of the puzzle that just happens to personally resonate in me as of late.

I suddenly feel that this is now becoming proselytizing....

Lol. What I meant that there might be something else one doesn't know.

Like setting the rules saying if God existed things would be like that doesn't make sense for me. It is about testing the whole "theory" or whatever you call it and seeing if it makes sense.

 

[Sabour]

From what I understand, "personal experience" in this context boils down to "something an individual experiences on a deep, personal level that cannot be shared, demonstrated or directly or indirectly objectively verified or experienced by anyone other than the individual who had the initial experience".

Well there are somethings that can be tested by our logic and knowledge.

For example, if someone says he is hearing a physical sound he is wrong.

If someone says that I almost died today but God saved me, at that moment I felt that there is God who I asked help , I think that might be interesting.

No. One or more of them could be correct. We'd just have no way of knowing, and therefore rationally concluding, that they are.

Er, no. God could go one way or the other. Possibly both, for all I know. He could exist in a superstate.

Again, no. I never said that personal experience is always wrong, just that there is no good reason to believe that it is accurate.

Well okay, how about your personal experience? do you trust it ?

 

[Sabour]

That is exactly the kind of appologetics I am not interested in. And again I want you to understand I am not demanding or expecting "God" to do anything. You asked me what would convince me, and this would convince me.

Okay I just wanted to deliver the message that you should lower your standards a little.

Perhaps for a complete explanation about everything one needs to know.

 

[Sabour]

Sources please. I dont buy it.


People generally beleive what they do to geographic location alone, more then anything else.


A child left on a island to survive, would not know the abrahamic god in any sense as written.

And if it was an isolated island, he would be like primitive men, and possibly have smoke spirits, valcanos and thunder and lightning deities.

But not the god as you think you know it.

Here is the source Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph

I am not saying he knows about prophets, I am saying that he believe the all what he observes is created by God. God as one.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Here is the source Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph

I am not saying he knows about prophets, I am saying that he believe the all what he observes is created by God. God as one.

Uh, you're claiming something not found in the article you cited. In other words, you're putting words in other peoples' mouths.

 

[Sabour]

I was never really a believer, but I was raised going to Christian church, like nearly everybody else I knew. I just wasn't convinced, since the stories are not all that believable, really.

Like what?

When I was 18 I traveled a lot and ended up in a more pluralistic city, where people had a much wider variety of spiritual beliefs than the city where I grew up. For a rational kid like myself, that presented an intriguing puzzle, since all of them seemed equally convinced their beliefs were true, but many of them were contradictory. Yet all claimed to have had direct personal experiences that affirmed their beliefs, some of which I witnessed in person.

What about your experiences, didn't you find one makes more sense to you then the other?

Fast forward a few months later, after several sessions of sitting on a nice little private patch of beach I'd found, watching the tide going in and out and thinking of nothing, I had an epiphany. Like a little explosion in my head, where a bunch of preconditioned ideas from my childhood that I'd never really thought about were obliterated and for one incredible moment I saw the world around me with no preconceptions about it at all.

Then as the pieces fell back together, it was crystal clear to me how the whole belief -> evidence -> belief circle spins, and what it spins upon, which is intention. When it comes to spirituality, we see and experience more or less what we intend (or expect) to see and experience, and those intentions can either be established by unexamined conditioning or fully engaged, purposeful cultivation.

I then spent several years mucking about with the purposeful cultivation of intention for my personal exploration, had some extremely bizarre experiences, became satisfied with my conclusions and moved on.

Didn't catch on your final 3 sentences. What did you mean by experiences

 

[Sabour]

Were all born that way.

One thing I know for sure is that I wasn't ?

 

[Gordian Knot]

Gordian Knot said "I see atheists everywhere!!!!!"

LuisD said "Is it that difficult for some people to accept atheism as the very natural occurrence that it is?"

Luis, you knew that was a joke right? A takeoff on a great line from the movie The Sixth Sense?