Atman, Other-Emptiness, and other Buddhists

[crossfire]

Ya. The awakened one Sees the beginning, ending, and the constant change. Further, without the skandhas, there is cessation of rising .. the awakened man Sees this also. But is the Seeing devoid of the awakened one? If the Seeing is devoid of the awakened one, then there would be no tathAgata.

(But surely we must first get established in the knowledge/experience of impermanence of things, before we may even approach the cessation.)

Can something untraceable be traced? If it can be traced, then it is not tathata.

"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone (tathagata) [11] is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone is untraceable even in the here & now. [12]​

-source-

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram dyanaprajna ji :namaste

I'll agree that everyone views the teachings of Buddhism based on where they are on the path, even if it differs from others. I'll also admit that the teachings and scriptures are just fingers pointing at the moon.

jai jai , such fingers pointing at the moon are the kindness of our mothers who show us the world which we will later discover for ourselves .

But I can't figure how, if all we regard as the Buddha's teaching is just our own point of view, we can honestly call anything Buddhism, or why we don't just call everything Buddhism. Anatta is explained succinctly in the Pali canon, an is a cornerstone teaching of Buddhism. While it may be hard to understand outside of one's experience of it, we do have basic guidelines to follow regarding it, and to deny it is to deny the buddhadharma.

Allthough I have every respect for teachings which form the cornerstones of Buddhist traditions , I am looking back to the first turning of the wheel of law the four Noble Truths and 'the Noble Eight Fold Path' ...wherein the esence of Buddhist teachings are incapsulated in their most complete form .
The Noble Eight Fold Path encapsulates the essence of Buddhist practice , and is clearly devided into three forms of practice , ...the accumulation of wisdom , the practice of ethics and the training of concentration

many suttas held in the pali cannon are simply regarded to be discourses opon the truths contained within the first turning of the wheel of law , methods by which the monks were taught to understand the profound depth of the Four Noble Truths , this comes under the training of wisdom , but without the accompanying practice of ethics and the development of concentration this becomes interlectual learning alone , in which case we may easily become stuck in understanding through our own perspective alone , it is for this reason that it is advised that we continualy develop and broaden our experience through meditation .

constant meditation allows one to gain deeper insight through the gradual process of clensing the mind of defilements , without undergoing this process we grasp interlectualy at the teachings and run the risk of deepening ones sence of self rather than diminishing it .

in some respects we need to assimilate the teachings to the point where they become our own , untill we can apply the principles without the need to refer back to them as textural references , we need to be able to relate to the teachings in our own language , otherwise we spend our lives dualing with texts .

it is not a question of denying Buddha dharma , but more a process of becoming Buddha dharma , and to do this we have to go beyond the comfort of personal veiws and the temptation to use texts to support them .

 

[crossfire]

namaskaram dyanaprajna ji :namaste



jai jai , such fingers pointing at the moon are the kindness of our mothers who show us the world which we will later discover for ourselves .



Allthough I have every respect for teachings which form the cornerstones of Buddhist traditions , I am looking back to the first turning of the wheel of law the four Noble Truths and 'the Noble Eight Fold Path' ...wherein the esence of Buddhist teachings are incapsulated in their most complete form .
The Noble Eight Fold Path encapsulates the essence of Buddhist practice , and is clearly devided into three forms of practice , ...the accumulation of wisdom , the practice of ethics and the training of concentration

many suttas held in the pali cannon are simply regarded to be discourses opon the truths contained within the first turning of the wheel of law , methods by which the monks were taught to understand the profound depth of the Four Noble Truths , this comes under the training of wisdom , but without the accompanying practice of ethics and the development of concentration this becomes interlectual learning alone , in which case we may easily become stuck in understanding through our own perspective alone , it is for this reason that it is advised that we continualy develop and broaden our experience through meditation .

constant meditation allows one to gain deeper insight through the gradual process of clensing the mind of defilements , without undergoing this process we grasp interlectualy at the teachings and run the risk of deepening ones sence of self rather than diminishing it .

in some respects we need to assimilate the teachings to the point where they become our own , untill we can apply the principles without the need to refer back to them as textural references , we need to be able to relate to the teachings in our own language , otherwise we spend our lives dualing with texts .

it is not a question of denying Buddha dharma , but more a process of becoming Buddha dharma , and to do this we have to go beyond the comfort of personal veiws and the temptation to use texts to support them .

How do you regard the Dhammapada?

 

[atanu]

Can something untraceable be traced? If it can be traced, then it is not tathata.
-

I fully agree. But surely you have got it from one end of the 'Two Truths' spectrum. From the samsara end. From this end, atheists and materialists say that the body is all that is, since the Nirvana is untraceable. And we have nothing to refute them.

The term tathAgata, however, applies to the untraceable, that you cannot term as asat ( non existent). That would be contradiction of terms. That is the whole point.

Further, as shown by my friends, there are Buddhist schools who do teach of a dhatu.

Anyway. I think I should not squeeze this topic further lest it becomes bitter like lemon becoming bitter on over squeezing.

Thank you for your patience and kindness.

 

[crossfire]

I fully agree. But surely you have got it from one end of the 'Two Truths' spectrum. From the samsara end. From this end, atheists and materialists say that the body is all that is, since the Nirvana is untraceable. And we have nothing to refute them.

The term tathAgata, however, applies to the untraceable, that you cannot term as asat ( non existent). That would be contradiction of terms. That is the whole point.

Further, as shown by my friends, there are Buddhist schools who do teach of a dhatu.

Anyway. I think I should not squeeze this topic further lest it becomes bitter like lemon becoming bitter on over squeezing.

Thank you for your patience and kindness.

Um, how is that saying that the body is all there is?

It's saying that the consciousness of the tathagata is untraceable even while in the body.

 

[atanu]

Um, how is that saying that the body is all there is?

That was merely an example of the partial view from the samsara side. To Materialists and atheists there is nothing beyond the seen, the body. But that is not true. I was using this example to allude to our case where 'the untraceable' is being equated to a-sat (non existent). tathAgata is not a-sat (and is not 'sat' either in the samsaric view).

It's saying that the consciousness of the tathagata is untraceable even while in the body.

I did not say that. I said that the term tathAgata applies to the untraceable.tathAgata is compared to a bird in the sky that leaves no footprints. But it does not apply to an a-sat tattva.

( Please do not say that the consciousness of the tathAgata is untraceable. We are tracing that only).

 

[crossfire]

That was merely an example of the partial view from the samsara side. To Materialists and atheists there is nothing beyond the seen, the body. But that is not true. I was using this example to allude to our case where 'the untraceable' is being equated to a-sat (non existent). tathAgata is not a-sat (and is not 'sat' either in the samsaric view).

Agreed.

I did not say that. I said that the term tathAgata applies to the untraceable.tathAgata is compared to a bird in the sky that leaves no footprints. But it does not apply to an a-sat tattva.

OK

( Please do not say that the consciousness of the tathAgata is untraceable. We are tracing that only).

Buddha said that to people who were misrepresenting ("slandering the Buddha" is the term used) his teachings.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Good point. We have to remember the middle way, and avoid the extremes of either/or.

Thats what the intellectual teachings and dharma talks by teachers have indicated. The personal experiences so far has reflected such as being the case, so far not giving any cause to further reflect over it.

 

[crossfire]

What do ya'll think about the Mahayana Sutra of The Scripture Preached by the Buddha on the Total Extinction of the Dharma?

Buddhist Sutra - The Scripture Preached by the Buddha on the Total Extinction of the Dharma

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

It's about the dharma ending age; Ven. Hsuan Hua talked about it.

 

[crossfire]

It's about the dharma ending age; Ven. Hsuan Hua talked about it.

Sounds pretty apocalyptic, huh? A meaning to be inferred?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Sounds pretty apocalyptic, huh? A meaning to be inferred?

Apocalyptic, yeah. I'm not sure if I believe the three dharma ages to be real or metaphorical.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram crossfire ji :namaste

How do you regard the Dhammapada?

with the same love and reverence that that I regard all texts ,


belonging to the Khuddaaka Nikaya (the shorter veses) , found in the Sutra Pitaka)it consists of verses proported to have been spoken by the Buddha himself or by his close deciples , and allthough other sutras contain similar verses this collection serves as a sweet reminder to all who read , therefore it is particularly siuted for the layity and monastic orders alike as it can be easily read as it is without recorce to the sometimes lengthly and repetetive discussions held in other sutras . yet it is simple and concise , and to me has the directness of the Four Noble Truths , and again to me expresses much that is contained within the Eight Fold Path ....

and thus it says , ....'' the Noble Eight Fold Path is the best of all paths , the Four Noble Truths the best of all truths , freedom from desire is the best state , and he who has the eyes to see is the best of men .''

''this is the noble path which leads to freedom from illusion .''

''he who treads this path will end his suffering . I have told you of this path eversince I knew of suffering and its cause .''

you your self must make the effort , Buddhas only point the way . those who have entered the path and who meditate will be freed from the fetter of illusion.'' 273 --6

 

[crossfire]

namaskaram crossfire ji :namaste



with the same love and reverence that that I regard all texts ,


belonging to the Khuddaaka Nikaya (the shorter veses) , found in the Sutra Pitaka)it consists of verses proported to have been spoken by the Buddha himself or by his close deciples , and allthough other sutras contain similar verses this collection serves as a sweet reminder to all who read , therefore it is particularly siuted for the layity and monastic orders alike as it can be easily read as it is without recorce to the sometimes lengthly and repetetive discussions held in other sutras . yet it is simple and concise , and to me has the directness of the Four Noble Truths , and again to me expresses much that is contained within the Eight Fold Path ....

and thus it says , ....'' the Noble Eight Fold Path is the best of all paths , the Four Noble Truths the best of all truths , freedom from desire is the best state , and he who has the eyes to see is the best of men .''

''this is the noble path which leads to freedom from illusion .''

''he who treads this path will end his suffering . I have told you of this path eversince I knew of suffering and its cause .''

you your self must make the effort , Buddhas only point the way . those who have entered the path and who meditate will be freed from the fetter of illusion.'' 273 --6

Very good.

 

[Elector]

Pranams,

To avoid creating a new Anatta/Shunyavada thread, I would like to pose a question for the Buddhists on a related note...

The teaching of Shunyavada says - as far as I understand - that nothing has inherent existence, and everything is impermanent, correct?
However...
Is Existence devoid of inherent existence? Is Reality devoid of inherent reality? Is Being devoid of inherent being?
Note that by "Existence" I do not mean "an existent thing". By "Reality" I do not mean "a reality". By "Being" I do not mean "a being".

 

[Ekanta]

The teaching of Shunyavada says - as far as I understand - that nothing has inherent existence, and everything is impermanent, correct?

Not really, you forgot half the buddhist teaching.
It says "all phenomena are empty". Buddha-nature is not a phenomena, but the unborn.

 

[crossfire]

Pranams,

To avoid creating a new Anatta/Shunyavada thread, I would like to pose a question for the Buddhists on a related note...

The teaching of Shunyavada says - as far as I understand - that nothing has inherent existence, and everything is impermanent, correct?
However...
Is Existence devoid of inherent existence? Is Reality devoid of inherent reality? Is Being devoid of inherent being?
Note that by "Existence" I do not mean "an existent thing". By "Reality" I do not mean "a reality". By "Being" I do not mean "a being".

Buddha's teaching on Right View:
Kaccayanagotta Sutta: To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View)

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
(continues on with the cessation cycle...)​

As you can see from this and similar topics, clinging to wrong view does cause a lot of dukkha.

 

[Elector]

Not really, you forgot half the buddhist teaching.
It says "all phenomena are empty". Buddha-nature is not a phenomena, but the unborn.

Pranams,

I was addressing the Buddhists that do not accept this interpretation.

Buddha's teaching on Right View:

Pranams,

Thank you for the response.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme.

This was actually what I was trying to avoid...
"every-existent-thing" is not "Existence". A "chair" is a being, a "planet" is a being, a "galaxy" is a being, "the universe" is a being, "the multi-verse" is a being, but non of them are Being.
We can say "a planet is a being" or "the universe is a being", but can we say "Being is a planet/universe"?
So this does not answer my question, I repeat: Is Existence devoid of inherent existence?

 

[crossfire]

So this does not answer my question, I repeat: Is Existence devoid of inherent existence?

Does it really matter, as it is not relevant to Unbinding?

 

[von bek]

Existence is not a thing in of itself. It is merely a term for something the mind has discriminated. To speak of existence apart from things that have been discriminated as existing in some manner is fruitless, in my opinion.