Attachment to the Impermanent

[duvduv]

I don't see how this reply relates to my most recent posting.

 

[`mud]

hey Duvduv,
Do you ? Asking here, where is the boundary of afterlife,
or the Nirvana of new beginnings ?

 

[duvduv]

In another point, isn't impermanence itself being defined as a "permanent reality" according to the philosophy that there is no permanent reality?!

 

[duvduv]

How can Buddhism be considered non-theistic when the Buddha's own supposed sutras talk about Avalokitesvara and Amitabha Buddhas supreme beings who literally save anyone who believes in them and chants their names??!! Don't all Buddhists know about them?!

 

[crossfire]

Is there some inherent reason why the original teachings of Buddhism could not be associated directly or in association with theism, since all we hear in western discussion is that "Buddhism doesn't believe in God"?? In other words the practice of attaining liberation/enlightenment under Buddhist teachings could simply mean attaining merging with God in "emptiness"??

"Emptiness" means dependent-co-arising. Why would there be a need to merge with "emptiness" when that is already the natural state?

In another point, isn't impermanence itself being defined as a "permanent reality" according to the philosophy that there is no permanent reality?!

If you want to put it into Taoist terms, "Change is the only constant." I don't think this logically implies a "permanent reality." It simply implies dynamic change, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[crossfire]

How can Buddhism be considered non-theistic when the Buddha's own supposed sutras talk about Avalokitesvara and Amitabha Buddhas supreme beings who literally save anyone who believes in them and chants their names??!! Don't all Buddhists know about them?!

Have you ever heard of Upaya?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya

 

[`mud]

To my untrained ears, this `cake` has way too many layers to get to Nirvana.
To me.....Life is Stuff...cut a piece, eat and enjoy it, Nirvana will come eventually.

 

[duvduv]

Crossfire, but dynamic change itself is permanent. And who determines the criteria for authentic Upaya to determine which Buddhist teachings are authentic for the purpose intended?

 

[`mud]

" dyndmid " ???

 

[crossfire]

Crossfire, but dyndmid change itsekf is permanent. And who determines the criteria for authentic Upaya to determine which Buddhist teachings are authentic for the purpose intended?

It doesn't say it is permanent. We don't know if the universe is permanent. Current scientific studies seem to indicate that the universe had a beginning, which would also imply the possibility of an end.

 

[crossfire]

<...>
And who determines the criteria for authentic Upaya to determine which Buddhist teachings are authentic for the purpose intended?

It's an individual, personal thing. Each individual has their own unique set of psychological hang-ups to overcome, so each individual means of overcoming their psychological hang ups will be different. Some practices may get results. Other practices may not yield results. Still other practices, such as those that propagate greed, hatred, or delusion, should be rejected, no matter how much pretzel logic they may employ to justify the propagation of greed, hatred, or delusion. Practices that teach an ending of greed, hatred, and delusion should be accepted as beneficial.

See the Kalama Sutta for more detail regarding this.

 

[duvduv]

" dyndmid " ???

Corrected....."dynamic" in my posting.

 

[duvduv]

The bottom line is that Enlightenment and dynamic change are permanent, which contradicts the notion of non being and emptiness.

 

[crossfire]

The bottom line is that Enlightenment and dynamic change are permanent, which contradicts the notion of non being and emptiness.

Nope. Attachment to "permanence" is something that will cause suffering.

 

[`mud]

ok Duvduv, now I got it.
See...I do read a lot of what you write...
Even though there's necessarily not even any permanence to it !
It doesn't really cause any suffering, now...re-read I must.

 

[`mud]

Now a question:
In what form is the `change` shaped, chaos or controlled ?
The basic idea of permeance is constancy isn't it ?
Now.....what `gods` are chosen to effect those changes,
it seems to be circular doesn't it ?

 

[crossfire]

Now a question:
In what form is the `change` shaped, chaos or controlled ?

Sometimes one, sometimes the other. (Inconstant in that respect. )

 

[`mud]

So Crossfire,
You chose `controlled` , with a `god` or without ?
That would mean chaos wouldn't it ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Is there some inherent reason why the original teachings of Buddhism could not be associated directly or in association with theism, since all we hear in western discussion is that "Buddhism doesn't believe in God"?? In other words the practice of attaining liberation/enlightenment under Buddhist teachings could simply mean attaining merging with God in "emptiness"??

It is a Baha’i belief that the Buddha was a Messenger of God, what we normally refer to as a Manifestation of God. As such, He was equivalent to Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah (there were others, these are the primary Ones).

What happened since Buddha appeared is that over the passage of time the religion of Buddha became entirely changed and altered. As such, the followers got away from what the Buddha taught and came to believe something entirely different. That explains why most Buddhists do not believe in God.

The following excerpt from a longer chapter explains how religions are changed and altered over time, which is one of the reasons that they need to be renewed in every age. The other reason is that God has a “new message” in every age that He wants to reveal to humanity since the world we live in changes over time. Every age has its own problems thus the remedy the world needs in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as what a former age required, nor can it be the same as what a subsequent age will require.

Question.—To which category do Buddha and Confucius belong?

Answer.—Buddha also established a new religion, and Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but their institutions have been entirely destroyed. The beliefs and rites of the Buddhists and Confucianists have not continued in accordance with their fundamental teachings. The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images.

Now, consider: Christ frequently repeated that the Ten Commandments in the Pentateuch were to be followed, and He insisted that they should be maintained. Among the Ten Commandments is one which says: “Do not worship any picture or image.” 1 At present in some of the Christian churches many pictures and images exist. It is, therefore, clear and evident that the Religion of God does not maintain its original principles among the people, but that it has gradually changed and altered until it has been entirely destroyed and annihilated. Because of this the manifestation is renewed, and a new religion established. 166 But if religions did not change and alter, there would be no need of renewal.

In the beginning the tree was in all its beauty, and full of blossoms and fruits, but at last it became old and entirely fruitless, and it withered and decayed. This is why the True Gardener plants again an incomparable young tree of the same kind and species, which grows and develops day by day, and spreads a wide shadow in the divine garden, and yields admirable fruit. So it is with religions; through the passing of time they change from their original foundation, the truth of the Religion of God entirely departs, and the spirit of it does not stay; heresies appear, and it becomes a body without a soul. That is why it is renewed.

The meaning is that the Buddhists and Confucianists now worship images and statues. They are entirely heedless of the Oneness of God and believe in imaginary gods like the ancient Greeks. But in the beginning it was not so; there were different principles and other ordinances.

Again, consider how much the principles of the religion of Christ have been forgotten, and how many heresies have appeared. For example, Christ forbade revenge and transgression; furthermore, He commanded benevolence and mercy in return for injury and evil. Now reflect: among the Christian nations themselves how many sanguinary wars have taken place, and how much oppression, cruelty, rapacity and bloodthirstiness have occurred! Many of these wars were carried on by command of the Popes. It is then clear and evident that in the passage of time religions become entirely changed and altered. Therefore, they are renewed.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 165-166

 

[crossfire]

So Crossfire,
You chose `controlled` , with a `god` or without ?
That would mean chaos wouldn't it ?

I see chaos as what we don't understand. Your mileage may vary.