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Augustine & Original Sin

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Sticking to the verse in question. Paul says that "by" or "through" "one man sin entered the world". And in verse 14 Paul mentions Adam's transgression".
Yes, but this doesn't mean that everyone carries inherent guilt because of sin.

God told Adam not to eat from the tree. Adam did. Therefore, Adam sinned.
So if we can agree to this, what has it to do with Augustinian conception of Original Sin? How does Adam sinning mean that now everyone is born inherently guilty and sinful? Again, are you aware that the Latin can mean not just 'in whom' but 'in which'? I'd also again direct you to the Orthodox Christian understanding of what they call Ancestral Sin, rather than Original Sin.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes, but this doesn't mean that everyone carries inherent guilt because of sin.

So if we can agree to this, what has it to do with Augustinian conception of Original Sin? How does Adam sinning mean that now everyone is born inherently guilty and sinful? Again, are you aware that the Latin can mean not just 'in whom' but 'in which'? I'd also again direct you to the Orthodox Christian understanding of what they call Ancestral Sin, rather than Original Sin.

I think it's true that we all die because of Adam's sin. Guilty by association. By being in Adam when he sinned. Just like made righteous by association in Christ.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Think it's true that we all die because of Adam's sin.
I gave you two examples of folks who never died though: Enoch and Elijah.

Guilty by association.
This is a pretty weak argument. Are you to be blamed when your father sins since you're associated with him?

By being in Adam when he sinned.
What does this even mean though?

Just like made righteous by association in Christ.
I'm not a Christian, so this means nothing to me.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
I gave you two examples of folks who never died though: Enoch and Elijah.

They are exceptions to the rule. And so too will those who are living and translated at Christ's coming. After the dead are raised.


This is a pretty weak argument. Are you to be blamed when your father sins since you're associated with him?

Not of his particular sin. But I might look at myself and say "am I without sin myself?" if you want to take it further you might ask, "What is it about us that we sin?"


What does this even mean though?


I'm not a Christian, so this means nothing to me.

It simply means we share his nature. And given a new nature through Christ.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom
1. There is no mention, no inference, of "original sin" in Genesis' Garden story. There is no mention of sin at all, no mention of "the fall of Man" or of death entering the world or of "spiritual death" or of the need for a savior. The ONLY reason for the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden is given in Genesis 3:

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"─
23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden​

2. Nor could there be any question of sin (if rationality is relevant). Eve ate the fruit at a time when knowledge of good and evil was deliberately withheld from her. She was therefore incapable of forming an intention to sin, thus incapable of sin. Exactly the same is true of Adam.

3. The Tanakh states that sin can't be inherited ─ Ezekiel, the whole of chapter 18, not least:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
I also agree that what Paul said is not correctly paraphrased by Augustine; but the nuances of the argument are beyond my small koine Greek.

However, I acknowledge that the idea you're born already guilty and only this snakeoil I'm selling can save you has been a powerful sales tool for Christianity. On top of which, guilt is always handy for control and manipulation.

It's true that not all Christian ministers go heavy on guilt. But there are plenty who do, and they have the backing of doctrine.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
When I realized that Augustine actually suggested that children born with terrible deformities could actually be explained by their already-fallen nature due to "original sin," I put Augustine down and never picked him up again.

So what exactly does he mean by that .. that they sinned in life, which created greater consequences for them than others, or that they sinned, more than others, before they were born. Either way his conclusions seem morbidly unfair. It seems to take the concept of 'responsibility as hinging on the individual' to an extreme. If someone is young enough and suffers like that, they haven't even had a chance to develop individuality
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
So what exactly does he mean by that .. that they sinned in life, which created greater consequences for them than others, or that they sinned, more than others, before they were born. Either way his conclusions seem morbidly unfair. It seems to take the concept of 'responsibility as hinging on the individual' to an extreme. If someone is young enough and suffers like that, they haven't even had a chance to develop individuality
I might well be wrong (though I don't think that I am), but I think that what Augustine was doing was an early effort at apologetics. You don't get to blame God, even for early infant death due to deformities nobody then could understand, if you can just assume that even before having taken a breath, a human is guilty of sin worthy of death.

In my view, that's complete rubbish, but hey, it seems to be what his saintliness thought.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.
My favorite Scripture (Yoga Vasistha) teaches us to NEVER accept blind anything you read/hear ... always use your Common Sense
IF a verse "feels" (according to one's conscience) good THEN and only then accept that verse, otherwise discard that verse

To answer your question "my thoughts on this":
I go for "Because all sinned" as a simple to understand and "makes sense" translation. Because I see the "Game of Life" on earth, as a challenge to purify mind/emotions/habits. And "sin" (go against prescribed Dharma) results in another incarnation

Google Translate gives "Because all sinned" for "in quo omnes peccaverunt"
Google Translate gives in whom all have sinned in quo omnes peccaverunt

Note: See in the picture below, how even Google Translate goes wrong on minor changes like 'i' vs 'I' and quotation marks or period

Note: It's so easy that errors snug into scriptures, because they were written down long ago, no Google Translate or fact-checkers at that time
Note: Everyone who played the "whisper secret in neighbors ear" knows how quickly messages get distorted ... imagine if God whispers

upload_2021-2-8_1-44-13.png
 
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Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In addition to my previous comments Original sin has ordinary not superstitious beginnings. I think it refers to the state of being a child or an uncultured aggressive person. It is the idea that people are born with an innate aggression that has to be trained out. Trained out why? Trained out to bring peace and goodwill.

A lot of the discussions about this may actually not be as superstitious as it sounds. It depends. When Augustine says "All have sinned in Adam" is he merely referring to the uncultured state? Maybe the language is a device. Same could go for Hebrews and Romans. Its hard to tell.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Thesis.

Genes.

Genes owned by whole human selves. A human being a human.

Human naturally aware own common sense first.

Original sin satanism.

O mass the sin was consuming itself in the fire.

When God O earth stone was not a holy womb sealed angel mass it was committing original sin.

Man...science committed a mortal sin against his own mortal body and sacrificed it in satanism.

Thesis about osI r Is....Isis...Egyptian sciences.

A gene is not a thesis. A gene is natural.

The sis...no longer Isis.

Genesis....hurt sacrificed. Gene hurt. A discussion why. A thesis genesis.

A teaching of relevant medical bio advice.

Reason a human life mutated back to KRA ARK ape cause. Where Moses exodus effect changed human genome.

Small amount human family by pairs existed left expressing a human beast nature. A told scientific known medical advice reason why.

Advice to science theist today it did occur. To be informed as it happened. Advice does not exist unless it existed advised.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom

This is a nicely made point that Orthodox Christianity makes. I wish that when western Christianity split away from the Orthodox Christianity of the east, the western Christian movement had not adopted this specific Augustinian theology.

While some of Augustines points are insightful, some of the theology he created makes no logical sense. I think this is one of his big mistakes. Adam is responsible only for what he has done and the rest of us cannot (logically or rationally) blame him for our moral mistakes.

This seems to be one of the points the Prophet Baruch teaches those who were attempting to blame Adam for their bad moral choices when he said : “But now, turn yourselves to destruction, you unrighteous ones who are living now, for you will be visited suddenly, since you have once rejected the understanding of the most High. ...... Adam is, therefore not the cause, except only for himself, but each of us has become our own Adam.” The apocalyp e of Baruch (Baruch 2) 54:17-19;

I will have to do a bit of research and thinking about εφ ων and it's use in the text. I like the O.P.s point and it's logic. I think this is another example of why I think the more ancient and original Christianity, before Augustine (and before this doctrine), was more logical and reasonable.

Clear
φιφιφιω
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
It's like saying star trek and meaning it for natural human self born to human parents.

I want technology.

Star trek vision.

But I do not want to be not human intelligent ape man beast. I never wanted that status.

I do however in science fully aware of irradiation of bio life lost suffering if I increase the effect I would cause be east like humans to emerge. My dreams visions as science alienation of life.

But want says by knowledge we can lose DNA but not intellect otherwise our satanic alienation would no longer use civilization...technology or be rich and powerful. We don't want those losses.

Father said satanist brother wanted science but not cause. Learnt cause in less of the son. Want preceded sense. Visionary cause future. Earth was not converting. Where he was.

Activated conversion by machine vision was conversion first by image. How false science visions against natural human were implemented as AI warnings.

Now he wants but also does not want in human science aware review. So his prophetic alien star control visions fake science movies express want with what he does not want.

To knowingly become human being beast like but maintain human intelligence.
Prepared to remove life health.

Our human warning....they want to murder a huge DNA population versus healthy life...... but I still want civilization...status also.

Group says where did the murder of life plot come about. Yet in reality theories it. Humans were told in AI warnings.

His own scientific prophecies for life on earth by God earth removal spatial explanations. Star is wandering not as twelve cycle. Saviour. Earth did not wander as a star ship.

Theme savior humans on space ship....the enterprise organisation want. The group fake status. A small group of chosen humans live on as. Human.

Everyone else human mutated.

Real teaching human gene pool mutated. Only small genetic human cell family lives after all owning mutated human beast like bodies.

Not one special human group. Human genetics.

Why you are told never idolise science sacrifice of human life.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom

From a personal and Baha'i perspective the doctrine of original sin is man made and inherently irrational and unjust. I suspect the early Church father's have read too much into Paul's comments and simply got the wrong idea. Augustine's error has simply compounded the problem.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom

Paul himself warned about this - striving over words.
Doesn't make any difference if one verse is ambiguous - the WHOLE BIBLE EMPLOYS
THIS THEME OF ORIGINAL SIN.
Don't believe it? Watch a new born baby, or try to find a perfect human being.
 

thomas t

non-denominational Christian
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom
Thank you, Rival.
I think @Windwalker made a very valid point.
Augustine's translation does not match the rest of what Jesus said.
In my opinion, possible translations of the two Greek words for "in whom" are countless.
And who determines that the "whom" refers to Adam in the first place?
I propose: "in the face of death they all sinned".
If I remember well, Paul says somewhere else that it is the fear of death that inspires people to make the wrong decisions.
Maybe this may be an escape to the problem...
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom

I think this is absolutely right. A word by word translation would translate eph as upon. But you are right. Causal in force. "Death spread to all because all sinned".

The verse can be interpreted from two filters. One - the book of Ezekiel. Two - The Christian theology of Original Sin.

According to Ezekiel, the soul that sins will die. This death is not a physical death, but a spiritual death. You sin, you die spiritually. But when you repent, you are back, and you will live. Literally said in Ezekiel 18.

But according to the Christian theology, they believe in original sin so they will look at this verse not from the bottom up, but top-bottom. Thats when they will read this verses mention of death and sin as physical death and original sin.

Read from the filter of the book of Ezekiel and see for yourself.

Good post.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom

We can be succinct, too, and just look at the English only. "All die in Adam because ALL sinned." No one goes to Hell because of Adam's sin but for THEIR sin.
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
This is a nicely made point that Orthodox Christianity makes. I wish that when western Christianity split away from the Orthodox Christianity of the east, they had not adopted this specific Augustinian theology. While some of Augustines points are insightful, some of the theology he created makes no logical sense. I think this is one of his big mistakes. Adam is responsible only for what he has done and the rest of us cannot (logically or rationally) blame him for our moral mistakes.

This seems to be one of the points the Prophet Baruch teaches those who were attempting to blame Adam for their bad moral choices when he said : “But now, turn yourselves to destruction, you unrighteous ones who are living now, for you will be visited suddenly, since you have once rejected the understanding of the most High. ...... Adam is, therefore not the cause, except only for himself, but each of us has become our own Adam.” The apocalyp e of Baruch (Baruch 2) 54:17-19;

I will have to do a bit of research and thinking about εφ ων and it's use in the text. I like the O.P.s point and it's logic. I think this is another example of why I think the more ancient and original Christianity, before Augustine (and before this doctrine), was more logical and reasonable.

Clear
φιφιφιω

I like that. "Each of us has become our own Adam".

In Augustine's confessions, he recounts a time in his youth when he stole pears from a neighbor's tree. He mentions that he was not even hungry and there were even better pears at home.

For Augustine that was a very big deal. He considered it an act of almost incredible wickedness. And I suppose God thought Adam's act an act of incredible wickedness also, else He wouldn't have sentenced Adam to death.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
One of the general differences between Western and Eastern Christianity is in their view of 'Original Sin'. A while ago I came across this blog post that details how Augustine may have been wrong about OS because of a misreading of the Greek and Latin texts. This is the main basis for mainstream RC and Protestant views of OS, though it is not the only view acceptable to Catholics it is the dominant one.

I'd like to know your thoughts on this:

"Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

The Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”."


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle WisdomGentle Wisdom

Original sin was connected to eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is symbolic of law. Law defines, teaches and enforces what is considered good and evil behavior. Paul says, that sin is not imputed where there is no law. Sin only appears when a law appears, since sin has no power outside the law.

For example, things that were not against the law, 100 years ago, but which are now against the law, only become a sin when the law appears. When automobiles first appeared, one did not need a license to drive. This requirement only became a sin, when a law was created that said now you need a license. Law and sin is not magic but follows cause and affect, with law the cause of sin. Paul also said sin taking opportunity through the commandment produces sin of every kind.

Law defines and therefore creates sin. The more laws we define the sins that are created. The accumulative affect of law, is a lot of unconscious sin, that one is forced to learn by being defined by the law. This creates an internal polarization, contrary to instinct, causing another affect noticed by Paul. Sin taking opportunity through the new commandment, produces sin of every kind. The unnatural potential defined by law of man will need to be lowered. This will often occur via unconscious impulse, even in ways that do not appear to be directly connected to the specific law. It is more abbots the law that broke the camel's back. One may get pissed off and break a window due to the sudden hike in taxes.

As another example of the problems with law, marijuana laws are different state to state in the USA. If you travel across the country, smoking marijuana, you will be a sinner in those states where there is a law. However, you will not be a sinner where there is no law. Sin will only be imputed in states where there is a law. Law, like magic, can be used to define sin, and thereby intoxicate the power hungry. The power to make law and define sin can make the ego feel like a god, able to define the sins of others, while ignoring this for yourself. The dual standards the laws of the Democrats, in Washington, behave this way

Original sin is the breaking of the first law of good and evil. This began as a taboo against irrationality accepting law; tree of knowledge, due to fear and vanity, as better than instinct; tree of life. This cultural premise then set a pattern for humans, with some playing god each generation, defining law to give power to sin, in a way that is not rational or universal, but designed to help maintain and consolidate power. Different laws, in different states, for the same thing is not rational, and will lead to problems.

Jesus did away with law in favor of faith. He nailed law and its defined sins to the cross. When Jesus was tried, the Roman magistrate saw no violation of law worthy of death. The Pharisees, who wanted Jesus gone, made up a new law and a new sin to allow the death penalty. Human cultures, after Jesus, continued to make laws of man and accept laws of man, and therefore perpetrated the schema of original sin. Paul makes a distinction between laws of man and laws of God. The laws of God do not show preferences and are the same for all; ten commandments. Manmade tend to be political; subjective and ofter have dual standards that do not apply to the powerful and rich.

Laws of man often have self serving, dual standards, which render it manipulative. For example, Nixon was impeached for spying on an opposition political party. Obama did a similar thing, but worse in 2016, since he used government resources to help him spy. Obama was not even charged for doing something worse; dual standards. This is how laws of man creates injustice. Ironically, all you need to do is be in power and say that a new law allows any president named to Obama, is sinless, even if he breaks the same laws that Nixon broke. This is why God said, you shall surely die if you choose law. The corrupt will control the law and make laws that can railroad the innocent and protect and promote criminals.

Another good example is censorship of free speech on social media. The rules or laws of man on FaceBook will allow free speech for third world dictators to threaten other countries. It also allows Democrats to freely speak their talking points However, rules and laws will target and censor conservation ideas. This type of partition law is a continuation of original sin, since this is based on deception, is self serving and not rational and universal. Adam and Eve ate to booster their own egos and positions of power, not to make the best rational choices for all humans. Many modern laws do the same thing and lead to death and problems for others.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Original sin was connected to eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is symbolic of law. Law defines, teaches and enforces what is considered good and evil behavior. Paul says, that sin is not imputed where there is no law. Sin only appears when a law appears, since sin has no power outside the law.

For example, things that were not against the law, 100 years ago, but which are now against the law, only become a sin when the law appears. When automobiles first appeared, one did not need a license to drive. This requirement only became a sin, when a law was created that said now you need a license. Law and sin is not magic but follows cause and affect, with law the cause of sin. Paul also said sin taking opportunity through the commandment produces sin of every kind.

Law defines and therefore creates sin. The more laws we define the sins that are created. The accumulative affect of law, is a lot of unconscious sin, that one is forced to learn by being defined by the law. This creates an internal polarization, contrary to instinct, causing another affect noticed by Paul. Sin taking opportunity through the new commandment, produces sin of every kind. The unnatural potential defined by law of man will need to be lowered. This will often occur via unconscious impulse, even in ways that do not appear to be directly connected to the specific law. It is more abbots the law that broke the camel's back. One may get pissed off and break a window due to the sudden hike in taxes.

As another example of the problems with law, marijuana laws are different state to state in the USA. If you travel across the country, smoking marijuana, you will be a sinner in those states where there is a law. However, you will not be a sinner where there is no law. Sin will only be imputed in states where there is a law. Law, like magic, can be used to define sin, and thereby intoxicate the power hungry. The power to make law and define sin can make the ego feel like a god, able to define the sins of others, while ignoring this for yourself. The dual standards the laws of the Democrats, in Washington, behave this way

Original sin is the breaking of the first law of good and evil. This began as a taboo against irrationality accepting law; tree of knowledge, due to fear and vanity, as better than instinct; tree of life. This cultural premise then set a pattern for humans, with some playing god each generation, defining law to give power to sin, in a way that is not rational or universal, but designed to help maintain and consolidate power. Different laws, in different states, for the same thing is not rational, and will lead to problems.

Jesus did away with law in favor of faith. He nailed law and its defined sins to the cross. When Jesus was tried, the Roman magistrate saw no violation of law worthy of death. The Pharisees, who wanted Jesus gone, made up a new law and a new sin to allow the death penalty. Human cultures, after Jesus, continued to make laws of man and accept laws of man, and therefore perpetrated the schema of original sin. Paul makes a distinction between laws of man and laws of God. The laws of God do not show preferences and are the same for all; ten commandments. Manmade tend to be political; subjective and ofter have dual standards that do not apply to the powerful and rich.

Laws of man often have self serving, dual standards, which render it manipulative. For example, Nixon was impeached for spying on an opposition political party. Obama did a similar thing, but worse in 2016, since he used government resources to help him spy. Obama was not even charged for doing something worse; dual standards. This is how laws of man creates injustice. Ironically, all you need to do is be in power and say that a new law allows any president named to Obama, is sinless, even if he breaks the same laws that Nixon broke. This is why God said, you shall surely die if you choose law. The corrupt will control the law and make laws that can railroad the innocent and protect and promote criminals.

Another good example is censorship of free speech on social media. The rules or laws of man on FaceBook will allow free speech for third world dictators to threaten other countries. It also allows Democrats to freely speak their talking points However, rules and laws will target and censor conservation ideas. This type of partition law is a continuation of original sin, since this is based on deception, is self serving and not rational and universal. Adam and Eve ate to booster their own egos and positions of power, not to make the best rational choices for all humans. Many modern laws do the same thing and lead to death and problems for others.
You never read the OP, did you?
 
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