"Australians decisively support same-sex marriage"

[Jainarayan]

Yes you can. The Creator has made his requirement known regarding his laws to people of all faiths. Not believing in him doesn't make his law invalid....it doesn't mean that his law doesn't apply just because people reject it.....he says it applies to all. I am just passing that message along. What people do with that is up to them.

And I can tell you different, and it's just as valid because its my belief. Has your God spoken to you directly? Mine hasn't spoken to me either, but I know that what is in my scriptures is valid for me. Everyone sees God in their own way; God shows himself in a way meaningful to the devotee. My view of God is not meaningful to you, nor is your view of God meaningful to me.

You say you believe the Bible, but what if 2,000 years from now, after all commentaries and translations are done, we take Tolkien's universe and mythology of Middle Earth as fact, or the Harry Potter universe? The point is that 2,000 years from now, no one will have heard Tolkien or Rowling speak. All they will have is a book that is purported to be truth. It's circular reasoning to say the Bible is correct because it says so. That's like saying "they can't put anything on the internet that isn't true; it says that right on the internet". The difference between us is that your comments have a passive-aggressive, or more properly, a "back-handed compliment" tone. I don't try to tell anyone my beliefs are the correct ones and that my God is going to smite everyone who doesn't believe or accept his "laws", then couch it in "but it's none of my business".

There are many people who had better hope that their gods are the right ones....and not some overindulgent fake who is going to laugh all the way into oblivion with his many deceived devotees. No one gets out of this world alive you know.....

Well, you're judging right there. And you're mocking other religions and gods, and their devotees. Bad form.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have no desire to lobby for changes in law to make SSM illegal.....I didn't vote because what is in the law is none of my business. I have a greater interest in God's law than in man's.
That does not stop me from having an opinion on the issue, especially since it contravenes the law of God.
I don't have to agree with SSM any more than gays have to agree with the Bible.

But it seems to me that gays want to force everyone to accept them as normal....I will never see their relationships as normal. But that is not to say that I have anything against them personally. Its their lifestyle I can't accept because of how God views it.

What does it matter anyway? If the LGBTQ community are going to ignore God, they certainly aren't going to take any notice of dissenting voices....yet there are many.

What is it specifically about their lifestyle that you find unacceptable? You know they're just people, right? What are they doing that is so much more offensive than the things other people are doing? What kind of "lifestyle" are you suggesting that they are living and what makes it different from anyone else's "lifestyle?"

Why should they care about "dissenting voices?"

 

[SkepticThinker]

Perhaps you can apply that to a pedophiles? Some children raised in a household where pedophilia has been a part of their lives since they can remember, see nothing wrong with it. It is normal behavior to them. Girls who have had incestuous relationships with their fathers or brothers, see no wrong if the activity is consensual. If it comes to light they will defend their abusers. On that account, does that make what they are doing OK with you?

Humans are not natural perverts unless they choose to step over that line for whatever reason. Once they see that their flesh has a craving for that kind of activity and that they weren't struck by lightning as a result, they will keep moving that line because the flesh is a powerful influence in what people want to do, particularly in a sexual way. We are sexual beings, but the Creator added boundaries to that activity so that it was properly conducted within the boundaries that he set. Just because humans want to move the boundaries altogether, doesn't mean that the Creator does. That is the way I look at it.

Ummm because it harms children?

 

[Revoltingest]

Ummm because it harms children?

I know....I thought this would be so obviously harmful that it wouldn't come up.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I have no desire to lobby for changes in law to make SSM illegal.....I didn't vote because what is in the law is none of my business. I have a greater interest in God's law than in man's.
That does not stop me from having an opinion on the issue, especially since it contravenes the law of God.
I don't have to agree with SSM any more than gays have to agree with the Bible.

But it seems to me that gays want to force everyone to accept them as normal....I will never see their relationships as normal. But that is not to say that I have anything against them personally. Its their lifestyle I can't accept because of how God views it.

Gays aren't forcing anyone to think of them as anything. This is about gay people wanting equality. It's about them, not you.

What does it matter anyway? If the LGBTQ community are going to ignore God, they certainly aren't going to take any notice of dissenting voices....yet there are many.

Exactly so, so why worry about it?

If anyone asked for my personal opinion, I'd happily tell them I believe homosexual activity is sinful. But my opinion and $5 will get you a cup of coffee, it really doesn't have any bearing on whether other people should legally be allowed to do something. Not until such time as I can come up with objective, empirical evidence to support my opinion, any way, which, to date (AFAIK) no one has been able to provide about the alleged imminent Apocalyptic effects of SSM.

Further, I'll go so far as to say that, pending such evidence, Christians SHOULD support secular legalisation of SSM, if for no other reason than enlightened self interest. At the moment, we remain the religious/cultural majority in Australia and most Western nations. It may not always be so. If the time ever comes that some other group becomes the majority, and they regard OUR practices as sinful, we'll have a much better case to make in defence if we can point to clear examples of NOT enforcing our religious beliefs against non-believers.

 

[Jainarayan]

If anyone asked for my personal opinion, I'd happily tell them I believe homosexual activity is sinful.

I understand where you are coming from, so this is a genuine curiosity and not directed at you specifically... what is it exactly about "homosexual activity" or a "homosexual lifestyle" do people find sinful, or perverted, or icky? The only thing I can think of is that it comes down to what we do with and where we put our... well, you know... What people don't realize, because they're so fixated on that nebulous thing known as a homosexual lifestyle and can't or won't describe it, is that is only a small part of what it is to be gay. So, is it the sex itself? After all, heterosexuals do the same sorts of things... things that are contrary to God's laws for sexual relationships. Can anyone answer this?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am concerned about the outcome for those who reject the Creator's terms for life.

That's fine. But it's your beliefs, and going on about how it's lust and not love, how there will be ramifications to come (and non existent ones that have came), and how it's a huge affront to your god is crossing many lines. Really now, does your god have such a fragile ego that a society allowing for further equality under the law is going to upset him? I thought he was supposed to be god, not a child throwing a tantrum for not getting his way.

Is it wrong to warn people of a bad outcome for certain behaviors, as Jesus did?

Jesus said judge not. He not taught to love your neighbors, not point out their flaws and shortcomings, because if you do that to them he will do that to you.

Some who claim to be Christians have voted "yes" in this issue, against all Bible teachings.

For all we know, they voted yes because they acknowledge that while they may believe it is a against Biblical principles, it is none of their damn business if gays are getting married.

Australia has one of the biggest gay mardi-gras in the world, held every year....and it is obvious what is being celebrated. It is gay sex that is being promoted....it isn't "love" but "lust" that is the theme of the occasion.......do people even know the difference anymore?

You putting "gay" in front of "sex," it's really no different than someone with racist undertones pointing out when someone is "black" even though it's entirely and utterly irrelevant to the point.
And it's very presumptuous of you, and arrogant, to denounce it all as lust and not love. Sure, probably lots of them do have sex before, during, and after. But there will be couples in loving monogamous relationships, those who are single and celebrating their legal gains when they find the "right person," and even allies who are standing with their friends, neighbors, and family.

I don't believe that it is ever going to gain complete acceptance.

It will. And future generations will see opposing same sex marriage and going on about the downfall of society and tearing apart morality as being on par with the idea that racial integration would destroy and corrupt society. We may even get a type of Blazing Saddles with a gay sheriff having to navigate through a world of hatred and stereotypes, with the haters being at the butt-end of the jokes.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Did I say that? Biblical marriage between a man and a woman is the norm because it allows children to be born into a family where male and female influences are balanced and the people who contributed to your birth are actually related to you biologically. That gives us our sense of self. I understand that certain circumstances make that difficult, but that is the goal of Biblical marriage, generally speaking.

Regardless of whether children are born or not, the marriage itself is sanctioned by the Creator.



You were talking about the US.



Indeed.....but not everyone thinks gay sex is moral either. There is really no such thing as equality if it has to be forced on people. That means that consensus will never be reached because of opposing views that can never be reconciled. We just have to learn to live with the fact that neither side will ever gain acceptance from the other camp. To agree to disagree is the only solution.



I have never found the Bible to be wrong in any way that counts. It has guided me all my life one way or another.
I have never found that when humans transgress the laws of God that it ever results in genuine happiness for them long term. Just the opposite in fact.



Rights? Equality? If everyone has equal rights, then those rights should never come at the expense of the rights of others. Tell me how that can work in real life?
Without compromise, it can never be achieved. Do you see a willingness to compromise on either side of this topic? It will never be forced, no matter what the law says. You do understand this?



I don't personally have the right to dictate anything to anyone. No one has to answer to me.....but I do believe that they will have to answer to the Creator sooner or later. Lets see if he recognizes those rights.....?

Till then...live and let live. If they stop throwing gay rights at me....I will stop throwing God's law at them....simple.

What rights that gay people want to be afforded do you think "come at the expense of the rights of others?"

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes you can. The Creator has made his requirement known regarding his laws to people of all faiths. Not believing in him doesn't make his law invalid....it doesn't mean that his law doesn't apply just because people reject it.....he says it applies to all. I am just passing that message along. What people do with that is up to them.
I am nobody's judge.

He hasn't made me aware of these requirements.

There are many people who had better hope that their gods are the right ones....and not some overindulgent fake who is going to laugh all the way into oblivion with his many deceived devotees. No one gets out of this world alive you know.....

Including yourself.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I know....I thought this would be so obviously harmful that it wouldn't come up.

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a no-brainer. Or maybe not.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I understand where you are coming from, so this is a genuine curiosity and not directed at you specifically... what is it exactly about "homosexual activity" or a "homosexual lifestyle" do people find sinful, or perverted, or icky? The only thing I can think of is that it comes down to what we do with and where we put our... well, you know... What people don't realize, because they're so fixated on that nebulous thing known as a homosexual lifestyle and can't or won't describe it, is that is only a small part of what it is to be gay. So, is it the sex itself? After all, heterosexuals do the same sorts of things... things that are contrary to God's laws for sexual relationships. Can anyone answer this?

I can give you a more detailed answer if you like, but the short answer is "my church says". That's it. But, and here, I think, is the really important bit... I fully acknowledge that what my church says has absolutely no bearing nor relevance to anyone who's not in my church. Like I said, I'll give my opinion if asked, but if I'm not, I'm happy to keep my mouth shut, because it's really none of my business what fully consenting adults do, not least because I expect the same courtesy, and there's that whole Golden Rule deal.

Note well, I specifically said "homosexual activity is sinful", I didn't use any nonsense phrases like "homosexual lifestyle", nor do I base my position on "ickyness". Hey, it's not for me, (I'm shockingly vanilla) but there's lot's of things people enjoy that's not for me. I fully acknowledge that my personal distaste is a really bad basis for prohibition of anything.

I'm sorry if this wasn't the sort of answer you were hoping for, but I'm trying to be open and honest.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

What rights that gay people want to be afforded do you think "come at the expense of the rights of others?"

Well, the right to not be discriminated against comes at the expense of the "right" to so discriminate.

Other than that, none I can think of.

 

[Jainarayan]

I can give you a more detailed answer if you like, but the short answer is "my church says". That's it. But, and here, I think, is the really important bit... I fully acknowledge that what my church says has absolutely no bearing nor relevance to anyone who's not in my church. Like I said, I'll give my opinion if asked, but if I'm not, I'm happy to keep my mouth shut, because it's really none of my business what fully consenting adults do, not least because I expect the same courtesy, and there's that whole Golden Rule deal.

Note well, I specifically said "homosexual activity is sinful", I didn't use any nonsense phrases like "homosexual lifestyle", nor do I base my position on "ickyness". Hey, it's not for me, (I'm shockingly vanilla) but there's lot's of things people enjoy that's not for me. I fully acknowledge that my personal distaste is a really bad basis for prohibition of anything.

I'm sorry if this wasn't the sort of answer you were hoping for, but I'm trying to be open and honest.

No, that's good. Thanks.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well, the right to not be discriminated against comes at the expense of the "right" to so discriminate.

Other than that, none I can think of.

That's all I can really come up with as well.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[SomeRandom]

Perhaps you can apply that to a pedophiles? Some children raised in a household where pedophilia has been a part of their lives since they can remember, see nothing wrong with it. It is normal behavior to them. Girls who have had incestuous relationships with their fathers or brothers, see no wrong if the activity is consensual. If it comes to light they will defend their abusers. On that account, does that make what they are doing OK with you?

Humans are not natural perverts unless they choose to step over that line for whatever reason. Once they see that their flesh has a craving for that kind of activity and that they weren't struck by lightning as a result, they will keep moving that line because the flesh is a powerful influence in what people want to do, particularly in a sexual way. We are sexual beings, but the Creator added boundaries to that activity so that it was properly conducted within the boundaries that he set. Just because humans want to move the boundaries altogether, doesn't mean that the Creator does. That is the way I look at it.

How come it's always pedophilia that's suddenly brought up out of nowhere? Frankly as a victim I find it repulsive that anyone would dare use sexual abuse of minors to argue against homosexuality as if they're anywhere near the same thing. Abused kids are not pawns to be trotted out to make some kind of statement.
Frankly that's despicable, I expect better from my religious brethren.

Here's something that separates the two. Informed consent. A child cannot ever give informed consent, even if they intellectually understand something. Because they are not aware of the emotional consequences. Now a child can be manipulated very easily to not think of their abuse as real, especially if their abuser is a family member. But study after study has concluded that it harms them regardless. A battered wife who is taught that violence against women is acceptable is not miraculously unharmed just because she views it as normal. Get real. Incidentally this is why sex Ed is so important for children. To try to educate them to see past the manipulation and report it.

As for incest, you do realise that barely a hundred years ago it was perfectly normal in society to marry one's cousin, right? Expected even.
But agian, we can in fact point to harm in incestuous relationships. Something we can't do for gay couples. See due to the lack of genetic variation, the offspring of incestuous couples are far more likely to develop genetic disorders. The same is true of polygamous situations. With now rare disorders making a comeback in such families. Now if they're all sterile then I don't really care what people do behind closed doors. Eww but whatever.

Who is hurt by two adults who happen to be the same sex getting together? No one. No reputable study has ever come to the conclusion that said couple existing causes any harm. To the couple, to other people or even children they may raise. Big fat zero. Not to say that society's constant denigration of that couple will not harm them. Oh look a good reason not to dehumanise gay people.
So to equivocate these instances certainly does raise my natural Aussie BS detector.

 

[Deeje]

That harms children....horribly.
And they're simply too immature to be capable of giving consent.

No one can argue with that.....but some children are groomed so well from infancy, that they do not interpret pedophilia as a bad thing. Just because something is consensual doesn't make it more moral. It isn't just the harm it does consciously, but the harm it does deeply and psychologically. Sadly, abused children often go on to become abusers themselves.

Humans are natural perverts.
Where choosing comes into play is in their actions.

I'll qualify that by saying many humans are perverts but it isn't without knowledge that it is wrong. We have a standard that we grow up with, and people know when they have violated that standard. We have a conscience for a reason, don't we?

Solomon wrote...."Because sentence against a bad deed has not been executed speedily, the heart of men becomes emboldened to do bad." (Ecclesiastes 8:11)

If we get away with something once, then every time thereafter, it becomes easier untill there is no prodding of conscience at all. It's lack of a penalty that keeps humans sinning. Yet the penalty has taken its toll on the gay community. STD's like AIDS are still stalking them.
Having better treatments hasn't made that go away.

Monogamous sex never leads to disease, but multiple partners and perverted sex acts do. Nature tells us that its wrong. We are designed to be monogamous.

We will reap what we sow...there is no way to avoid it. Total freedom is not all its cracked up to be. It has a way of coming back to bite you in the rear end.

I observe that different creators have different standards of behavior.
With no way to say which ones have The Truth, we need a more
universal standard...hence my proposal.

I believe that a universal standard will ultimately be achieved by the God who wins in the end.....lets wait and see who that is then, shall we?

 

[Revoltingest]

No one can argue with that.....but some children are groomed so well from infancy, that they do not interpret pedophilia as a bad thing. Just because something is consensual doesn't make it more moral. It isn't just the harm it does consciously, but the harm it does deeply and psychologically. Sadly, abused children often go on to become abusers themselves.



I'll qualify that by saying many humans are perverts but it isn't without knowledge that it is wrong. We have a standard that we grow up with, and people know when they have violated that standard. We have a conscience for a reason, don't we?

Solomon wrote...."Because sentence against a bad deed has not been executed speedily, the heart of men becomes emboldened to do bad." (Ecclesiastes 8:11)

If we get away with something once, then every time thereafter, it becomes easier untill there is no prodding of conscience at all. It's lack of a penalty that keeps humans sinning. Yet the penalty has taken its toll on the gay community. STD's like AIDS are still stalking them.
Having better treatments hasn't made that go away.

Monogamous sex never leads to disease, but multiple partners and perverted sex acts do. Nature tells us that its wrong. We are designed to be monogamous.

We will reap what we sow...there is no way to avoid it. Total freedom is not all its cracked up to be. It has a way of coming back to bite you in the rear end.



I believe that a universal standard will ultimately be achieved by the God who wins in the end.....lets wait and see who that is then, shall we?

None of the above convinces me that sexual relationships
between adults & children is anything other than harm to them.
Thus, my standard of morality still looks better than Xianity's....
"If it doesn't harm anyone else, & if you're doing something with
someone else with their permission, then it's probably OK."

 

[Deeje]

Has your God spoken to you directly? Mine hasn't spoken to me either, but I know that what is in my scriptures is valid for me. Everyone sees God in their own way; God shows himself in a way meaningful to the devotee. My view of God is not meaningful to you, nor is your view of God meaningful to me.

This is as it should be. Everyone has choices but they should be informed ones surely? Does hearing both sides do anyone any harm? Isn't that what creates balance and helps people to see what's at stake?
As far as I can see there are many 'gods' vying for people's attention these days.....we can choose whomever we like for whatever reason makes them appealing to us.

I guess my main bone of contention is the propaganda surrounding the whole issue. It looks as if the gay agenda is being pushed so hard that it is influencing people to accept, what would normally have been unacceptable to them before exposure to this constant barrage from the media. Wearing people down is not a good way to win an argument. It doesn't mean that they agree, its just that they are tired and they will give in to get some peace.

Its about eroding standards of decency. I am just a dissenting voice that says immorality is immorality, no matter what gender you are. The world has moved in an entirely different direction, but the God of the Bible does not change his standards. It is to those ones that I appeal not to lose sight of God's standards of morality in an immoral world.

The difference between us is that your comments have a passive-aggressive, or more properly, a "back-handed compliment" tone. I don't try to tell anyone my beliefs are the correct ones and that my God is going to smite everyone who doesn't believe or accept his "laws", then couch it in "but it's none of my business".

I just want to be the voice of the other side.....the voice of the underdog, not pre-supposing that everyone holds to this being OK with everyone.....and especially not getting the idea from "Christians" that it is OK with God for gay marriage to be as acceptable as 'straight' marriage. Scripturally it never will be.

Well, you're judging right there. And you're mocking other religions and gods, and their devotees. Bad form.

My religion is mocked constantly....is that bad form too? Let's face it, religions are so easy to mock if you don't subscribe to them.

I am judging no one personally. I am judging an issue that I do not believe is negotiable from the perspective of Bible believers. What people of other faiths do is none of my business, although I am under obligation to pass God's message along to them also. They don't have to listen. But they will never be able to say they weren't told.....

 

[Deeje]

None of the above convinces me that sexual relationships
between adults & children is anything other than harm to them.

I wasn't trying to.....I was reinforcing the point that just because something is consensual, doesn't mean its not harmful. I wasn't using pedophilia as being on the same level as homosexual sex. I was concentrating on what you said about something being consensual and not harming anyone.

Seriously.....if jumping to conclusions was an Olympic sport, there are quite a few posters on this site who would win gold medals hands down!

Thus, my standard of morality still looks better than Xianity's....

To whom....? That is the question....? Tell it to the judge.

"If it doesn't harm anyone else, & if you're doing something with
someone else with their permission, then it's probably OK."

That is the stance that most people take in this day and age....but it is certainly a major shift away from what used to be accepted as common standards of decency. Decency has all but disappeared and I personally don't think it has made the world a better place. It is eroding family values and the fabric of society is interwoven with those values. The mighty Roman Empire fell due to the same forces that permeate our society too. Materialism, couple with a complete breakdown in morality. It was conquered by its own hedonistic choices. We never learn the lessons from the past and are therefore doomed to repeat their mistakes.

Can you imagine in years to come, someone trying to trace their ancestors on a family tree? What a nightmare!
The register of "Births Deaths and Marriages" will be awash with names and relationships that are so convoluted that kids will lose all sense of who they are...if they haven't already.

 

[Jainarayan]

I guess my main bone of contention is the propaganda surrounding the whole issue. It looks as if the gay agenda is being pushed so hard that it is influencing people to accept, what would normally have been unacceptable to them before exposure to this constant barrage from the media.

What is there to accept? Describe this “gay agenda”. What are the items on this agenda? Specify how anyone is being influenced.

You’ve given no specifics on anything in this thread, only sweeping comments of hyperbole and melodrama.

Its about eroding standards of decency. I am just a dissenting voice that says immorality is immorality, no matter what gender you are. The world has moved in an entirely different direction, but the God of the Bible does not change his standards. It is to those ones that I appeal not to lose sight of God's standards of morality in an immoral world.

You say you don’t approve of this so-called immorality being foisted on you. Well, here’s sauce for the goose... we don’t want to hear your dissenting voice foisting on us what is only your beliefs.

We can see and hear the process of law making. It is fact and law, not belief or faith. I can’t see or here that which made the laws you claim override all others.