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Authoritarianism Poll

Would you describe yourself as having "Authoritarian" political views or leaning?

  • Yes- Very Authoritarian

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • Yes- Somewhat Authoritarian/it depends

    Votes: 6 15.0%
  • No

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 3 7.5%

  • Total voters
    40

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Pie in the sky ideas:

I propose this as an axiom: If you want to maximize the efficiency of government you must randomize the outcome of decisions enough that leaders cannot be confident that they will not be personally affected by decisions. You have to compel them to care about the good of the population by making sure they share the fate of their population. Authoritarian governments cannot accomplish this. In the past they could somewhat, because the leaders personally went into battles. Only democracies and republics today have anything like a randomized decisions, but even they can become too large.

I recommend that governments begin to include dice rolling in decision making. Using the US Senate as an example lets say the US senate has 20% of senators who do not support a measure. Then if the measure passes anyway there should be a roll with a D20 which will carry a penalty measure preassigned by the largest dissenting group if a 17 or above is rolled and a measure assigned by an even smaller dissenting group if a 20 is rolled. So if the majority passes a measure it still must face the dice. This is only fair, since everybody knows that the ruling parties try hard to fix votes, move voting lines to suit themselves, that with increasing population they have become less responsive to voter concerns and that they have taken advantage of advances in statistics and dynamical systems to predict outcomes thus disadvantaging voters.

I think that dice rolls could have saved the USSR a lot of bad decisions and probably could have kept it solvent. It was too authoritarian, and many decisions did not affect its leadership. They could do anything with no personal risk. No one was ever held accountable for the disappointment which led to its dissolution.

I view USA, Russia, China and the EU as too centralized and non-random and not them alone.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I guess about 99% of the time I would be the antithesis of authoritarian, but, that 1%,for when things have to get done, there is a significant threat, or other dire situations I would begin to evaluate and consider squeezing an iron fist to deal with the problem if the risks of more normal means are just too risky (such as if a terrorist group definitely does have a nuclear device, I wouldn't bother with obtaining a search warrant).
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I voted "no."

I really think of myself as a strong believer in free speech, but as in all things, there are limitations. I am allowed to do what I want with my hands, in your presence, except to touch your privates, punch you in the nose, and such like. I am allowed to say "I don't like (pick a race)," because that is a statement about me (and not a good one, by the way). But I must not be allowed to say "(pick a race) need to be killed." That is no longer a statement about me, but an exhortation to violence.

Have all the arguments you like about what pronouns should or should not be used in relation to people of ambiguous sexuality, or about what washrooms they should use, or about whether liberals are essentially socialist rather than capitalist (they're not, actually).

I don't like notions about telling people what they must do, but I'm okay with setting limits on what they may do. This is simply a matter of safeguarding others.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Capitalism is a rigid hierarchical system where a select few lord over the masses.
It can be that.
It's also many other things.
On larger scales, it's far more flexible than communism....so
many individual entities acting independently as opposed to
centralized control.
We see this playing out in the real world, ie, the closer to
communism, the more authoritarian the government must
be to enforce it.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
It can be that.
It's also many other things.
On larger scales, it's far more flexible than communism....so
many individual entities acting independently as opposed to
centralized control.
We see this playing out in the real world, ie, the closer to
communism, the more authoritarian the government must
be to enforce it.

I think you made some critical errors there. Communism or socialism for that matter doesn't require by definition a strong centralised government. Communalism actually proposes a framework that is decentralised as do anarcho-syndicalism. On large scale and without restriction, capitalism transform itself basically in an oligarchy where a few dozen individuals control everything as they basically own everything. Capitalism requires a strong counterbalancing power if only to prevent the rise of monopoles, the creation of cartels, foster competition, prevent underhanded tactics as much as possible and sponge up the effect of the competition (AKA those who have lost everything).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think you made some critical errors there. Communism or socialism for that matter doesn't require by definition a strong centralised government.
There's more to communism than its dictionary definition.
This thread should help you....
Atheism, Capitalism, Evolution, & Free Speech Go Together Like.....
Communalism actually proposes a framework that is decentralised as do anarcho-syndicalism.
It's a naive proposal.
See the linked thread above for my explanation why.
On large scale and without restriction, capitalism transform itself basically in an oligarchy where a few dozen individuals control everything as they basically own everything. Capitalism requires a strong counterbalancing power if only to prevent the rise of monopoles, the creation of cartels, foster competition, prevent underhanded tactics as much as possible and sponge up the effect of the competition (AKA those who have lost everything).
And yet, the real world results of capitalism offer greater liberty
& prosperity than socialism's historical & current examples, eg,
N Korea, Cuba, USSR, PRC.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It can be that.
It's also many other things.
On larger scales, it's far more flexible than communism....so
many individual entities acting independently as opposed to
centralized control.
We see this playing out in the real world, ie, the closer to
communism, the more authoritarian the government must
be to enforce it.
Isn't communism just utopian society directed at the end of a gun? That seems to be what happens repeatedly with so called communist political parties. I think its terribly depressing.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
And yet, the real world results of capitalism offer greater liberty
& prosperity than socialism's historical & current examples, eg,
N Korea, Cuba, USSR, PRC.

This is a simplistic picture at best. Let's take the US as an example. It has a significantly lower index of democracy and is a more authoritarian country than Canada even though, and perhapse because, Canada has imposed tighter restrictions on businesses and developped a larger social net, in other words, more socialist policies. It's even more stricking with North European countries. It also completely forget that some of the most repressive country on the planet like Russia, Saudi Arabia, The Democratic Republic of Congo and many other African countries for that matter are all operating under a capitalist system of governance (but aren't democracies).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is a simplistic an empirical picture at best.
I fixed your sentence.
Fans of socialism always claim how theoretically great it can be.
But the premises (eg, competent & honest leaders) are not reliable.
It's more illuminating to look at how systems play out in the real world.
Let's take the US as an example. It has a significantly lower index of democracy and is a more authoritarian country than Canada even though, and perhapse because, Canada has imposed tighter restrictions on businesses and developped a larger social net, in other words, more socialist policies.
Canuckistan is not a socialist country.
In fact, it has been improving its rank (now #8) in The Heritage Foundation's
index of economic liberty, ie, capitalism. It years ago surpassed Ameristan,
which is no longer even in the top 10, having fallen to #12.
Ref...
Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom
You're confusing a social safety net with socialism.
The latter is about the people owning/ controlling the means of production.
It's not about health care.
It's even more stricking with North European countries. It also completely forget that some of the most repressive country on the planet like Russia, Saudi Arabia, The Democratic Republic of Congo and many other African countries for that matter are all operating under a capitalist system of governance (but aren't democracies).
Russia is indeed having its problems with liberty. You know, of course,
it's run by an ex-KGB official from the USSR (Putin). But as bad as things
are, Russians aren't being killed off by their own government at anywhere
near the rate they were during communism.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
I fixed your sentence.
Fans of socialism always claim how theoretically great it can be.
But the premises (eg, competent & honest leaders) are not reliable.
It's more illuminating to look at how systems play out in the real world.

I don't think you can make a capitalism = more liberty equation then. By looking at the bottom 20 countries in the list only North Korea is a centralised socialist societies while all others are capitalist and all of them are basically pretty much just as repressive as the other. It's also good to note that liberal democracies only started to emerged after WWI and truly blossomed after WWII, a full century after capitalism became the dominant economical doctrine in the West. Ironically things like unionisation were fundamental to the rise of liberal democracies and unions used to be considered downright communist organisations.

Canuckistan is not a socialist country.
The latter is about the people owning/ controlling the means of production.
It's not about health care.

Indeed Canada isn't a purely socialist country based on a system like Marxism-Leninism or Maoism. Neither did I claim it was, I mentionned it was "more socialist than the US". It does have socialist policies. Universal healthcare is a socialist entreprise. It makes healthcare services under the absolute control of the State and it's population. That's a socialist idea applied to a specific sector and it proved to be very successful. In my province, the State owns the power company (Hydro-Quebec) and it has a monopoly. It also is a great success. These are socialist measures. It would be more accurate to describe Canada as a fairly hybrid system where capitalism is the norm in most sector, but where some other potential sectors of economical activity, socialism is the rule. This combination has proven more effective at providing freedom than "a more pure definition of capitalism".
 
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