Awaiting a false messiah?

[Muffled]

"Coming on the clouds of heaven" could be a figure of speech, so there is that. Also ascending into heaven could also be a figure rather than an event you're expected to believe literally. Actually the Jewish expectation should be considered evidence in favor of this rather than dismissed. Who, after all, are the experts on scripture? That's a rhetorical question.

I believe figures of speech are something that does not normally occur. Airplanes come on the clouds of heaven literally and they ascend into heaven as well.

 

[Muffled]

There's an opportunity for moshiach in every generation. See below. That means that each prophet could be describing different a different possibility, a different set of circumstances where the spirit of salvation descends on an individual who is capable of carrying the title and leading the Jewish people. This would account for the differing prophecies by different prophets throughout the years.

משתמש:איתן נחמן/Moshiach in every generation – חב"דפדיה

I believe the only possibility for an earthly Messiah now is the Anti-Christ, the incarnation of the devil.

 

[dybmh]

I believe the only possibility for an earthly Messiah now is the Anti-Christ, the incarnation of the devil.

An earthly messiah is the antichrist? Hm. I wonder what that says about Christ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I believe figures of speech are something that does not normally occur. Airplanes come on the clouds of heaven literally and they ascend into heaven as well.

I appreciate that. You are a completely separate mind from me, but you do influence me just as I influence you. It cannot be helped. It affects us what the people around us do and think. Christ is a team effort, and what one lacks another may provide. Each one has a measure of faith, something they can be faithful in. Some have the gift of understanding mysteries. Not everybody can be both a poet and a cake decorator.

 

[Segev Moran]

A few things on that. I do agree that clouds can be symbolic. Absolutely.
The messiah is connected with God, but we also know through scripture that he will be coming down from heaven.

Where is heaven?
Can you point to the OT text that demonstrate this place?

He was born on earth, but then went up to heaven.

How do you know its a he?
And why would you say he "was"?
Do you know who the messiah is already?

Just one mention... in Thessalonians it tells us that Christ will come back from heaven and the first thing that he does is to raise the dead, then judge.

So Jesus was a Jewish man, who was born of god.
He than died as a man.
Reborn as god?
Founded Christianity,
Became a Christian? (Although was completely Jewish? but not really?)
Went to heaven as all of the above
And now returning as a messiah to judge us?

Also part of the reason that he is coming back is to be with the saints, who are the true believers.

What is a true believer?
Am I not a true believer?
How can belief be measured?
If he was already here... why go away?

There are many other books too, but you look Acts and it tells us of the journeys of the Apostles and what they believed in. Part of their preaching was the resurrection and the return of Christ.

I Am not familiar enough with Christianity scriptures, but I know that Jesus himself said clearly that the OT is true and should no be altered.
The OT clearly explains how the day of the messiah will look like.
It has no reference at any point, to the fact the messiah will be god itself at any point of time.
It clearly explains the messiah will not be known to be the messiah until the moment the messiah is selected.
It seems more logical in my POV, that if there is indeed a messiah, no one can really know who it will be.

 

[Segev Moran]

Which way does the text tell us that the man is headed? Is he headed towards earth, or towards heaven?

It doesn't say. it speaks of the clouds and their appearance of a human.
It doesn't tell of a human travelling from the clouds or to them.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It doesn't say. it speaks of the clouds and their appearance of a human.
It doesn't tell of a human travelling from the clouds or to them.

No, but it tells us that the man 'reaches' or 'comes to' the 'Ancient of Days'. And since God is in heaven, the conclusion must be that the man is approaching God at His throne in heaven.

 

[Segev Moran]

No, but it tells us that the man 'reaches' or 'comes to' the 'Ancient of Days'. And since God is in heaven, the conclusion must be that the man is approaching God at His throne in heaven.

What does it mean that god is heaven? How do you define heaven?
Where does it ever say that god's throne is in heaven?
What is god's throne?

 

[Redemptionsong]

What does it mean that god is heaven? How do you define heaven?
Where does it ever say that god's throne is in heaven?
What is god's throne?

Psalm 11:14. 'the Lord's throne is in heaven' or lsaiah 66:1, 'heaven is thy throne'.

It's clear that 'heaven' is a spiritual realm, and is distinguished from 'earth' in Genesis 1:1. We know that this visible, material existence is temporal, and that spirit does not die. These clues should all help in providing an interpretation for Daniel 7:13,14.

If a man, who is evidently born on earth, finds his way to heaven, the abode of God's throne (or the 'seat' of His presence) then we need an explanation for how this can occur, even if the words are derived from a vision.

 

[moorea944]

Where is heaven?
Can you point to the OT text that demonstrate this place?

How do you know its a he?
And why would you say he "was"?
Do you know who the messiah is already?

So Jesus was a Jewish man, who was born of god.
He than died as a man.
Reborn as god?
Founded Christianity,
Became a Christian? (Although was completely Jewish? but not really?)
Went to heaven as all of the above
And now returning as a messiah to judge us?

What is a true believer?
Am I not a true believer?
How can belief be measured?
If he was already here... why go away?

I Am not familiar enough with Christianity scriptures, but I know that Jesus himself said clearly that the OT is true and should no be altered.
The OT clearly explains how the day of the messiah will look like.
It has no reference at any point, to the fact the messiah will be god itself at any point of time.
It clearly explains the messiah will not be known to be the messiah until the moment the messiah is selected.
It seems more logical in my POV, that if there is indeed a messiah, no one can really know who it will be.

[Where is heaven? Can you point to the OT text that demonstrate this place?]
We dont know where heaven is. Scripture doesnt tell us that. But we know that God is there. Also Jesus and the angels too.

[How do you know its a he? And why would you say he "was"? Do you know who the messiah is already?]
Of course we know who the messiah is. Scripture is clear on that.

[So Jesus was a Jewish man, who was born of god.]
No, not at all. I dont believe in the trinity at all. Jesus is not a god, he is a man, not a mere man, but in a way that Mary was is mother and God is his father. The trinity is false religion and was added into Christianity.

[He than died as a man. Reborn as god?]
Again, no. That is false doctrine that should be rejected by everyone. The bible knows nothing about Jesus being a God.....

[Became a Christian? (Although was completely Jewish? but not really?) Went to heaven as all of the above And now returning as a messiah to judge us?]
Became a Christian?.... Not sure where this is going. Jesus is Jewish, but it is God's laws and commandments that he follows. The "law", was never meant to save. It changed with Jesus. A new priesthood after the order of Melchezidic, not the Levi priesthood. Man has put a label on this, not Christ.

[What is a true believer? Am I not a true believer?]
I didnt say you werent. I think that your just looking for an argument. Enternal life is to know God and Jesus.

[How can belief be measured?]
I dont know, why does it have to be measured?...

[If he was already here... why go away?]
Very simple answer. The apostles wanted to know that too. Jesus also gives them an answer.

Jesus had to go away for many reasons. He couldnt stay with the apostles, they would never grow spiritually. They had to be on their own. Jesus is saying that in the world where there isnt any struggle or personal grappeling is the circumstances with challenges of the faith, there is no growth of faith. Without grappling of the problems of life, faith cant grow. Jesus says that I have to go away!! Because if I'm here, guess what, your going to depend on me for the rest of your life!!! Your never going to grow, your going to remain like little children. So if your going to grow up and mature, you've got to be on your own so you can do this. Jesus had to go away in order for them to grow up.

Jesus also told them that he had to go away and that he would come back.
He went away to build a spiritual house for them, a family of believers. This also goes back to 2 Sam 7.
Not only are we told that Jesus went to heaven, we are told why he went to heaven! (Heb 9)
And this is all of his father's will. God's plan and purpose.

[I Am not familiar enough with Christianity scriptures,]
I know, I can tell....

[but I know that Jesus himself said clearly that the OT is true and should not be altered.]
I totally agree.

[The OT clearly explains how the day of the messiah will look like.]
Yes, Isaiah 53

[It has no reference at any point, to the fact the messiah will be god itself at any point of time.]
I agree and that's unfortunetly "Mainstream Christianity'.

[It clearly explains the messiah will not be known to be the messiah until the moment the messiah is selected.]
That's not true, can you show me a verse on that?

[It seems more logical in my POV, that if there is indeed a messiah, no one can really know who it will be.]
Not true and not logical at all. We do know who the messiah is. How come you dont?....

 

[rational experiences]

Basic science O earth first God sits as a stone throne in its heavens.

God as it's throne.

Men theists said a volcano opened gods hell released the gases into space womb. Said it was immaculate heavens conception.

Science theism.

Immaculate now holy yet came from a place of evil.

Told science never change it as it holds heavens balances of natural life support

Why mother was given to the theism teaching.

Mother heavens kept us safe.
Mother human mother owned baby life continuance.

Two holy mother theisms about life continuance.

There is no other teaching science.

Cause and effect life was sacrificed was a new assessment.

A testimonial to mans science caused machine sin attack on life.

Gods stAtus lost as highest.

Status. Immaculate existed.
Day existed.
Cloud mass natural seen in both heavenly states.

With daylight clouds or without daylight clouds existed.

Is the answer in relativity don't theory about it as it was evolution of gases only.

 

[Segev Moran]

Psalm 11:14. 'the Lord's throne is in heaven' or lsaiah 66:1, 'heaven is thy throne'.

It is written "Skies", not heaven (same as Genesis first verse).

It's clear that 'heaven' is a spiritual realm, and is distinguished from 'earth' in Genesis 1:1.

These is no spiritual reference to heaven anywhere in the OT.
The only "heaven" is the Garden Eden which is clearly stated as a physical place on earth.

We know that this visible, material existence is temporal, and that spirit does not die.

How do you know that?

These clues should all help in providing an interpretation for Daniel 7:13,14.

Yet all these clues are not originated in the OT.

If a man, who is evidently born on earth, finds his way to heaven, the abode of God's throne

God is not bound the a place nor a throne.

(or the 'seat' of His presence) then we need an explanation for how this can occur, even if the words are derived from a vision.

I agree. So far I haven't heard of an explanation that explains the idea of "spiritual" heaven.
How do you define a "spirit"?

 

[Segev Moran]

[Where is heaven? Can you point to the OT text that demonstrate this place?]
We dont know where heaven is. Scripture doesnt tell us that. But we know that God is there. Also Jesus and the angels too.

So if the scripture doesn't tell anything about it, what is you knowledge based on?

[How do you know its a he? And why would you say he "was"? Do you know who the messiah is already?]
Of course we know who the messiah is. Scripture is clear on that.

Where? Can you point me to the OT reference?

[So Jesus was a Jewish man, who was born of god.]
No, not at all. I dont believe in the trinity at all. Jesus is not a god, he is a man, not a mere man, but in a way that Mary was is mother and God is his father. The trinity is false religion and was added into Christianity.

Ok.

[He than died as a man. Reborn as god?]
Again, no. That is false doctrine that should be rejected by everyone. The bible knows nothing about Jesus being a God.....

I Agree.
The OT also knows nothing about Jesus being resurrected or gods son.

[Became a Christian? (Although was completely Jewish? but not really?) Went to heaven as all of the above And now returning as a messiah to judge us?]
Became a Christian?.... Not sure where this is going.

I meant that in the sense that Christianity is completely different than Judaism, yet Jesus was a Jew and he "changed" the Jewish religion to what we today call Christianity?

Jesus is Jewish, but it is God's laws and commandments that he follows.

What about the Sabbath?

The "law", was never meant to save.

I agree. It was meant to guide.

It changed with Jesus.

But didn't Jesus said nothing should be changed?

A new priesthood after the order of Melchezidic, not the Levi priesthood. Man has put a label on this, not Christ.

Who is Christ then?

[What is a true believer? Am I not a true believer?]
I didnt say you werent. I think that your just looking for an argument. Enternal life is to know God and Jesus.

Not looking for an arguemnet. You wrote "true believers". I am trying to figure out what a true believer is.

[How can belief be measured?]
I dont know, why does it have to be measured?...

If you want to claim something as true or not, you must provide a way to measure it (not necessarily a material way).

[If he was already here... why go away?]
Very simple answer. The apostles wanted to know that too. Jesus also gives them an answer.

Jesus had to go away for many reasons. He couldnt stay with the apostles, they would never grow spiritually. They had to be on their own. Jesus is saying that in the world where there isnt any struggle or personal grappeling is the circumstances with challenges of the faith, there is no growth of faith. Without grappling of the problems of life, faith cant grow. Jesus says that I have to go away!! Because if I'm here, guess what, your going to depend on me for the rest of your life!!! Your never going to grow, your going to remain like little children. So if your going to grow up and mature, you've got to be on your own so you can do this. Jesus had to go away in order for them to grow up.

I agree that one needs struggle to grow. But why show up in the first place?
Jesus arrival caused endless loss of lives, unmeasurable amount of pain, a powerful abusive force.

Jesus also told them that he had to go away and that he would come back.
He went away to build a spiritual house for them, a family of believers. This also goes back to 2 Sam 7.
Not only are we told that Jesus went to heaven, we are told why he went to heaven! (Heb 9)
And this is all of his father's will. God's plan and purpose.

Hmm.

[I Am not familiar enough with Christianity scriptures,]
I know, I can tell....

[but I know that Jesus himself said clearly that the OT is true and should not be altered.]
I totally agree.

So why all the changes?

[The OT clearly explains how the day of the messiah will look like.]
Yes, Isaiah 53

Where does it say its about the "after days" and the coming of the messiah?

[It has no reference at any point, to the fact the messiah will be god itself at any point of time.]
I agree and that's unfortunetly "Mainstream Christianity'.

Yep. I think it causes a lot of confusion.

[It clearly explains the messiah will not be known to be the messiah until the moment the messiah is selected.]
That's not true, can you show me a verse on that?

its not a specific verse rather the combination of the prophecies.

[It seems more logical in my POV, that if there is indeed a messiah, no one can really know who it will be.]
Not true and not logical at all. We do know who the messiah is. How come you dont?....

Because there is no evidence what so ever to anyone being the messiah.
So far, anyone who claimed to be or been claimed to be the messiah, brought mainly pain, suffering and misery to humans.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is written "Skies", not heaven (same as Genesis first verse).

These is no spiritual reference to heaven anywhere in the OT.
The only "heaven" is the Garden Eden which is clearly stated as a physical place on earth.

How do you know that?

Yet all these clues are not originated in the OT.

God is not bound the a place nor a throne.

I agree. So far I haven't heard of an explanation that explains the idea of "spiritual" heaven.
How do you define a "spirit"?

Throughout scripture there is a distinction made between spirit and flesh. Jesus said, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' I think, without attempting to define the indefinable, it is enough to know that the realm of God is not accessed by the flesh. Yet the 'one like a human being' who approaches God (in Daniel 7:13) appears to be coming from the realm of flesh to the realm of spirit. In other words, this must be a spiritual being in the form of a man. Within the parameters of scripture, which Jesus says 'cannot be broken', I am led to the only reasonable conclusion. This scripture is speaking of the ascension of God's 'anointed'.

If you want further evidence that this interpretation is the correct one, then I would refer you to Matthew 24:30, which says, 'And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn [see Zechariah 12:9-14] ,and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory'.

Matthew 24 is speaking about a return to earth, but the ascension must take place before the return. Where is this prophesied? In Daniel 7:13,14.

Another little point of difference between the 'ascension' and 'second coming', is that the latter is described as 'with power and great glory'. Tell me, did the Son of man ascend to God with 'power and great glory'? Or is it that the one who ascends, and is given dominion and 'a kingdom', returns with 'power and great glory'?

 

[Segev Moran]

Throughout scripture there is a distinction made between spirit and flesh.

Not in the OT.

Jesus said, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'

That is not one with the Jewish teachings.

I think, without attempting to define the indefinable, it is enough to know that the realm of God is not accessed by the flesh.

I disagree.
God's "realm" is all. Flesh, stones, "sprit", Mind.

Yet the 'one like a human being' who approaches God (in Daniel 7:13) appears to be coming from the realm of flesh to the realm of spirit.

Where does is say anywhere regarding the realm of spirits?

In other words, this must be a spiritual being in the form of a man.

No it is not.
This is clearly a vision of symbolic images, not actual things. This is true for all Daniels visions. They are all symbolic.
Surely you are not suggesting there really is a Giant with Golden head, Silver shouldn't and so on, Same as you are aware that there is no actual beast with four heads.
[/QUOTE]
Within the parameters of scripture, which Jesus says 'cannot be broken', I am led to the only reasonable conclusion.
[/QUOTE]
I guess we are in a disagreement about what consider reasonable.

This scripture is speaking of the ascension of God's 'anointed'.

I have not seen such "talks" in the OT.

Another little point of difference betwen the 'ascension' and 'second coming', is that the latter is described as 'with power and great glory'. Tell me, did the Son of man ascend to God with 'power and great glory'? Or is it that the one who ascends and is given dominion and 'a kingdom', returns with 'power and great glory'?

I don't understand all those terms.
In my POV, there is no real spiritual realm or concept.
I cannot understand things like ascension in non physical sense.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not in the OT.

Yes, the distinction between 'flesh' and 'Spirit' is made throughout the Tanakh.

Numbers 24:19 says that 'God is not a man'. We are told, instead, that God gives life to the soul. So God's Spirit is the breath of life. Spirit is life. Without this life, the body and soul are dead.

 

[Segev Moran]

Yes, the distinction between 'flesh' and 'Spirit' is made throughout the Tanakh.

The OT writes נשמת חיים.
It actually means a breath of life.
There is no doubt we have a force of life within us. we describe it as evolution.
In that sense, Its makes complete sense and also matches the rest of the texts.
I

Numbers 24:19 says that 'God is not a man'.

Yeah. Obviously.

We are told, instead, that God gives life to the soul.

Define "soul"?

So God's Spirit is the breath of life.

In that sense I can understand what you men. Thanks for clarifying.

Without this life, the body and soul are dead.

What do you mean when you say soul?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The OT writes נשמת חיים.
It actually means a breath of life.
There is no doubt we have a force of life within us. we describe it as evolution.
In that sense, Its makes complete sense and also matches the rest of the texts.
I
Yeah. Obviously.

Define "soul"?

In that sense I can understand what you men. Thanks for clarifying.

What do you mean when you say soul?

The word 'soul' has a few different usages, l believe, but where it is not referring to the whole man, l believe it means 'mind'.

 

[moorea944]

The word 'soul' has a few different usages, l believe, but where it is not referring to the whole man, l believe it means 'mind'.

Good point. "Soul" in Hebrew is "Nephesh". It can be written different ways, but we have to remember that we are not given a soul, we are a soul. Just like "spirit" can be written in different ways to.

When God created man, we "became" a soul. God did not give us one. Plus, there is no such things as an immortal soul like most Christians believe. Scripture tells us that a soul can die, be hungry, can weep, etc.

But my other point is that it can be refferring to the whole man. Absolutely!! We have to remember that we are a soul. Right from the beginning to now. No changes on that at all.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Good point. "Soul" in Hebrew is "Nephesh". It can be written different ways, but we have to remember that we are not given a soul, we are a soul. Just like "spirit" can be written in different ways to.

When God created man, we "became" a soul. God did not give us one. Plus, there is no such things as an immortal soul like most Christians believe. Scripture tells us that a soul can die, be hungry, can weep, etc.

But my other point is that it can be refferring to the whole man. Absolutely!! We have to remember that we are a soul. Right from the beginning to now. No changes on that at all.

I have pondered about whether a 'soul' (as 'mind') can exist beyond the death of the body, and I have decided that it must be possible, based on certain passages of scripture.

Firstly, Jesus died bodily upon the cross. Yet, when his soul descended into the grave, he was able to cry unto God, based on Jonah 2:2, 'out of the belly of sheol cried I, and thou heardest my voice'. Secondly, there are indications that Jesus preached to the souls of the dead whilst in the grave.

1 Peter 3:18,19. 'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;'

Can there be justice for all men if some never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel?