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Awaiting a false messiah?

2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
Yes, the distinction between 'flesh' and 'Spirit' is made throughout the Tanakh.

Numbers 24:19 says that 'God is not a man'. We are told, instead, that God gives life to the soul. So God's Spirit is the breath of life. Spirit is life. Without this life, the body and soul are dead.
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Not exactly true. God "formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7). Man, the clay pot, is formed from dust, and it is the breath of God, breathed into the lungs, and therefore into the blood, in which the life exists. Upon death, the spirit of God returns to God. (Eccleciastes 12:7 The Soul is a compilation of the Spirit of God and the dust of the earth. When you die, your body will return to dust. The dust will not think, nor plan.

New American Standard Bible Eccleciastes 12:7
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Redemptionsong said:
I have pondered about whether a 'soul' (as 'mind') can exist beyond the death of the body, and I have decided that it must be possible, based on certain passages of scripture.

Firstly, Jesus died bodily upon the cross. Yet, when his soul descended into the grave, he was able to cry unto God, based on Jonah 2:2, 'out of the belly of sheol cried I, and thou heardest my voice'. Secondly, there are indications that Jesus preached to the souls of the dead whilst in the grave.

1 Peter 3:18,19. 'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;'

Can there be justice for all men if some never have the opportunity to hear the Gospel?
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According to your "gospel" of the cross/grace, there is no real justice. According to Yeshua and the prophets, everyone one will be judged for their deeds (Revelation 20:10), not on some false gospel of a false prophet. The rock/stone, upon which the Mountain of God is built is in the ark of the covenant (Isaiah 56:6), which is summed up according to Yeshua, as in to do unto others as you would have them do to you. That is a basic faith of most religions, from Buddha to Confucianism. Little children are innately cognizant of the kingdom of God, and if they don't harden their hearts in becoming adults, they can retain their understanding into old age. That apparently isn't the general rule. They often become awed by the Gothic type cathedrals to hell, as well as the forked tongues of the demon possessed, and fall captive to false prophets. Any search, beyond a shallow dig, would show those false prophets as being empty vessels.
 
Shadow11

Shadow11

Member
Jesus himself said that he would not be recognized by the Jews as the messiah they were looking for a King who would lead them out of occupation from the Roman's and reestablish Israel as King and Jesus just didn't fit to what they were expecting. But he did say he would preach his message to Israel first which he did.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Shadow11 said:
Jesus himself said that he would not be recognized by the Jews as the messiah they were looking for a King who would lead them out of occupation from the Roman's and reestablish Israel as King and Jesus just didn't fit to what they were expecting. But he did say he would preach his message to Israel first which he did.
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I hear 90% of Christians saying this.

Why do you think the Jews have the expectations they have? Do you think maybe they are located in their own scriptures?

Or do you think they made up their expectations of of whole cloth or something?
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Shadow11 said:
Jesus himself said that he would not be recognized by the Jews as the messiah they were looking for a King who would lead them out of occupation from the Roman's and reestablish Israel as King and Jesus just didn't fit to what they were expecting. But he did say he would preach his message to Israel first which he did.
Click to expand...
The whole idea of the messiah is that it is he who is king during the messianic era. Jesus, quite frankly, never ruled Israel.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Rival said:
I hear 90% of Christians saying this.

Why do you think the Jews have the expectations they have? Do you think maybe they are located in their own scriptures?

Or do you think they made up their expectations of of whole cloth or something?
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I believe the expectations were partially valid. The problem is they never bothered to ask. They just assumed Jesus should fit their expectations. Not only that but they wouldn't accept what He did say.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I believe the expectations were partially valid. The problem is they never bothered to ask. They just assumed Jesus should fit their expectations. Not only that but they wouldn't accept what He did say.
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They assumed he should because those expectations came to them from God Himself. The messiah doesn't get to subvert God.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
IndigoChild5559 said:
The whole idea of the messiah is that it is he who is king during the messianic era. Jesus, quite frankly, never ruled Israel.
Click to expand...

I believe that isn't necessary. As Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. On the other hand I am in His kingdom and that kingdom is world wide.
 
Rival

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Muffled said:
I believe expectations do not get to subvert God.
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What do you believe that the messiah is meant to do?

The Jews believe he is meant to gather the lost tribes, be a king, bring world peace and rebuild the Temple. There is scriptural proof for his doing these things.

What are your scriptural proofs for your messianic expectations?
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Muffled said:
I believe the expectations were partially valid. The problem is they never bothered to ask. They just assumed Jesus should fit their expectations. Not only that but they wouldn't accept what He did say.
Click to expand...
The only way to know who the messiah is, is whether a man fulfills the prophecies. Jesus did not.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Muffled said:
I believe that isn't necessary. As Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. On the other hand I am in His kingdom and that kingdom is world wide.
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Well that's the whole point. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. The Messiah on the other hand very much will have a kingdom of this world. Thus, Jesus is ruled out as the Messiah.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
Well that's the whole point. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. The Messiah on the other hand very much will have a kingdom of this world. Thus, Jesus is ruled out as the Messiah.
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Ah, but Jesus is NOT ruled out :)
Both Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus will return.
He will then become a spiritual world leader.

It is not just about Jews .. it is about ALL who believe in the Messiah. He won't just rule "Israel".
Hashem is the creator and maintainer of the universe.
There is no other god. He is Absolute.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
muhammad_isa said:
Ah, but Jesus is NOT ruled out :)
Both Christians and Muslims believe that Jesus will return.
He will then become a spiritual world leader.

It is not just about Jews .. it is about ALL who believe in the Messiah. He won't just rule "Israel".
Hashem is the creator and maintainer of the universe.
There is no other god. He is Absolute.
Click to expand...
You know what, when Jesus "returns" (yeah right) and then fulfills the prophecies, THEN you can say he is the messiah. But not before.
 
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