Babies in heaven... Right or wrong?

[Just_me_Mike]

Nope... They died......Heaven? Don't know - the Bible doesn't say but it said they were of the Nefelin race (Spelling???) Mixture of man and sons of God (Angels, demons,Adamites, ????) The Gaints of old - The stuff that legends are made of. Maybe it was Hercules and those guys that needed to be drowned like rats. Noah was building that wooden dinghey of his for 140 years !! Surely somebody had noticed and asked some questions. They simply did not care!!! Same is today, isn't it.

Well as for your opinion, I will leave that for another thread. It has little to do with this thread. The facts are, the bible does say God destroyed all the people save Noah and the crew. The fact is even as a story, it implies babies were judged along with adults. I don't see how anyone can present a case that says God doesn't judge either babies based on inherited sin or on future sins of the child. Either way, my OP still stands.

 

[ChristineES]

Here is a thought:

Would you punish someone (your child, for example) for something that they might or will do in the future before they have done it? People do and can change from what they will or may do in the future- if you were to believe a book like Jonah, with what happened in Nineveh. I am certain that a loving parent will give a child every break he or she can. This can only be true if you believe that the future can be changed, though, which is something I believe.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Here is a thought:

Would you punish someone (your child, for example) for something that they might or will do in the future before they have done it? People do and can change from what they will or may do in the future- if you were to believe a book like Jonah, with what happened in Nineveh. I am certain that a loving parent will give a child every break he or she can. This can only be true if you believe that the future can be changed, though, which is something I believe.

You may believe this Christine, however if one is to examine all the information, it isn't so easy to conclude the bible teaches such a thing. That is all I am questioning. Not individual beliefs.

So let us examine this. If I new my son would kill someone in 10 years, would I try to do something to prevent that? Sure I would. I am not questioning that aspect.

With God it is different though. If God has the power to change things (and I would assume you agree with that) than he could choose to have Adam and Eve not do what they did right? So, the question becomes then, is God truly just if he changes some people's future and not others. The bible does not indicate God's justice works like that.

So back to the babies, if God knew before hand that a baby would become a killer, are you suggesting God will change that? Is God not able to judge the baby, based on the course the baby was going to take?

You see your premise of comparing God to us as parents won't work. Because if we had ten children and all ten we knew to be killers when they grew up, we would do everything in our power to change that.
Do you REALLY think God is trying to change what people become? He can't be, otherwise everyone would be perfect from birth to death. That isn't what we see, so we can only conclude, God does not parent as we would. Right or wrong I am not going to judge that, I am just trying to look at this honestly.

Our first inclination is to think God is bad for doing this. I wouldn't be so quick to say that, but it must be examined, the subject I am raising. In my opinion of course.

 

[ChristineES]

This is one debate that we can argue in a circle. We, as humans, don't punish criminals before they break the law, even if we had the ability to do so. The question seems to be "Does God punish for sins that will be committed in the future or does He only punish those that have already committed". I think I would have to be God to answer this question, because as much as I have read and studied the bible, I never found any answer to this question.

It is a good question, but it isn't one that can truly be answered, at least the way I see it.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

This is one debate that we can argue in a circle. We, as humans, don't punish criminals before they break the law, even if we had the ability to do so. The question seems to be "Does God punish for sins that will be committed in the future or does He only punish those that have already committed". I think I would have to be God to answer this question, because as much as I have read and studied the bible, I never found any answer to this question.

It is a good question, but it isn't one that can truly be answered, at least the way I see it.

Just for you, lets look at it one more way. Do you think God saves people in part from their actions, or do you think God saves for his own reasons?

Depending on your answer, did John the baptist do anything in the womb that warranted him becoming saved? If the answer is no, then we can at least say God determines the worth of a person from the womb. I mean if not, John could have become a killer and really bad person, but God knew he would be good all his life.

Does that help a little?

I agree it is a tough question, and I thank you for being honest about it.

 

[Dunemeister]

Let me chew on that for a while...
You know when I think of John the baptists, and how he was saved from the womb, it is very difficult to jump on your bandwagon.

He wasn't "saved from the womb." He was "set apart from the womb." He was called to a particular role. Salvation is a separate issue altogether.

I would figure God for consistency, and John did nothing accept become born, and he was saved.

Well, so much for simplistic logic.

I think it leaves open the conversation still.

What "leaves open" the conversation?

 

[.lava]

Hi .lava,
In order for that logic to really work, God would have to be limited to only knowing what is currently happening. If we limit God in this way, it is no longer the God of the bible or Quran or the Jewish God.

Neither of those books paint God to be a being that does not know the future, and in fact indicates God knows everything. Can you give me a specific reason from scripture that God does not know the future of all people?

if system for humans worked according to what God can do then system would not be just. because God is perfect and we are not


.

 

[sonofskeptish]

If God can see the future and see the past, is it not fair to say God knows whether or not a particular baby would ever have accepted God or Jesus?

And if He can tell with babies, couldn't He tell with all of us? So why play the mind games and have some of us wonder and grovel all our lives... just brand our arse like cattle with an UP or DOWN label so we know where we're going, and so we can get on with more important things... like living THIS short, precious, wonderful life to the fullest.

 

[kai]

do they stay babies like for eternity? what a scary thought?

 

[Charity]

do they stay babies like for eternity? what a scary thought?

Well at least a baby looks cute when it smiles without teeth, unlike the poor aged people who go to heaven.....
But then the Bible speaks that we won't have the afflictions as we have them here so I guess we can go without trying to grab our denture adhesive on the way.....

As far as I have always understood babies are covered until they reach the age of accountability, that is when they know right from wrong......So based on that assumption, all babies go to heaven.

 

[Smoke]

do they stay babies like for eternity? what a scary thought?

If you can believe what most Evangelicals tell me about it, heaven is populated chiefly by embryos and fetuses. Infants might be a welcome change.

I really don't understand why Christians are so uncomfortable with the idea of babies being damned. If you're comfortable with the idea of people being tortured for all eternity for things they did during a brief human lifetime, and for failing to embrace just the right religion in just the right way, why the need to draw the line at babies? By believing in hell you've already admitted that you worship a psychotic monster. If your god is prepared to torture the vast majority of humankind for all eternity, and you're okay with that, I don't understand how you could have any reservations about any cruel act whatsoever.

 

[ChristineES]

You know that not all Christians believe in some fire with naked people roasting in it. Some Christians, like me, believe that it is a separation from God. No baby could separate him/herself from God- they just haven't learned enough yet. Some adults can't separate themselves from God because of mental handicaps. I just don't believe in any eternal torture from God.

 

[Smoke]

You know that not all Christians believe in some fire with naked people roasting in it. Some Christians, like me, believe that it is a separation from God. . No baby could separate him/herself from God- they just haven't learned enough yet. Some adults can't separate themselves from God because of mental handicaps. I just don't believe in any eternal torture from God.

Some Christians don't believe in hell at all, but among those who do, I don't know why it should be any more shocking for babies to be subjected to it than for anybody else to be, especially if it not a place of eternal torture.

But you're assuming that we're basically born in god's good graces and have to take action to separate ourselves from him. The more common Christian belief is that we are born separated from god and have to reconcile with him.

 

[Dunemeister]

If you can believe what most Evangelicals tell me about it, heaven is populated chiefly by embryos and fetuses. Infants might be a welcome change.

I really don't understand why Christians are so uncomfortable with the idea of babies being damned. If you're comfortable with the idea of people being tortured for all eternity for things they did during a brief human lifetime, and for failing to embrace just the right religion in just the right way, why the need to draw the line at babies? By believing in hell you've already admitted that you worship a psychotic monster. If your god is prepared to torture the vast majority of humankind for all eternity, and you're okay with that, I don't understand how you could have any reservations about any cruel act whatsoever.

Actually, people go to hell for misrepresentation.

 

[.lava]

Actually, people go to hell for misrepresentation.

misrepresentation of what?


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[Terrywoodenpic]

Your logic requires us to believe God takes into account what might have been.

This could equally apply to adults who die in accidents. If they had lived, the outcome of their faith may well have been different.

This is why I do not believe in the traditional Sheep and Goats Judgment.
I believe we all return to God, after all our sins and memory of sin has been erased. This might leave many of us with very little. However a sinless baby would be unaffected.

 

[rusra02]

So, I just got done listening to prominent Christian teachers explain why babies go to heaven by default. They cited a few biblical passage from both Old and New Testaments, and for the most part made logical arguments. To summarize:

• Jesus loved little children, as evidence that he made it a point to tell people heaven was made of people just like children
• God often talks about his mercy, and if God was behind children dying or allowed it to happen, it doesn't matter because in his love they automatically go to heaven. As evidenced by the bible frequently saying God is a God of love, and disallowing babies into heaven is not an act of love.
• Lastly, babies neither have the ability or capacity to deny or accept Jesus or God and as such are covered by God's love, and get a pass into heaven.

So, I listened quietly, and after everyone was done speaking, I nodded my head. I simply asked one question, and was unable to get a reply. So I will ask those of you that teach such things the same question.

If God can see the future and see the past, is it not fair to say God knows whether or not a particular baby would ever have accepted God or Jesus?

Now, I got no serious replies, and in fact I think I made some angry. However, I think it is a valid question. To God, why would it matter if it was a baby or not? God knows everyone's heart today and even into the future does he not? Is God limited in this capacity?

The reason I bring this up, is it seems like such a big deal in Christian circles. However, using the logic I am suggesting simply opens the discussion back up for further review.

The whole premise of babies going to heaven is fallacious. There are NO babies in heaven. The hope for babies who die is a resurrection to life on earth, after God's kingdom takes control (Matthew 6:9,10). Jesus said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13)

The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:9, 11, 29, Matthew 5:5.)
What, then, about babies who have died? They do not go to Limbo, which does not exist. Young ones in God’s memory will come back in the resurrection of the dead—one of the marvelous promises in God’s Word. (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15)​

 

[.lava]

according to our teachings, people would be at the same age in after life. if i am not mistaken that would be 33 (including humans who died younger than 33). is there anything like that in Christianity?


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[Just_me_Mike]

The whole premise of babies going to heaven is fallacious. There are NO babies in heaven. The hope for babies who die is a resurrection to life on earth, after God's kingdom takes control (Matthew 6:9,10). Jesus said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13)

The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.” (Psalm 37:9, 11, 29, Matthew 5:5.)
What, then, about babies who have died? They do not go to Limbo, which does not exist. Young ones in God’s memory will come back in the resurrection of the dead—one of the marvelous promises in God’s Word. (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15)​

Well your reasoning almost works. One little problem though. In heaven or if you would like paradise on Earth, are people going to die, or live forever? If you answer live forever, then what will these babies be brought back as? Will they grow up, and if so grow up to what? How old will they get? Why is there even age in eternity? That is where your logic falls apart. :yes:

according to our teachings, people would be at the same age in after life. if i am not mistaken that would be 33 (including humans who died younger than 33). is there anything like that in Christianity?


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No .lava, there is no such thing taught from the bible, but I am SURE someone will come along and say their brand of Christianity does teach such a thing. I suppose I am restricting the conversation specific scripture and not interpretation (if that is even possible )

 

[Just_me_Mike]

He wasn't "saved from the womb." He was "set apart from the womb." He was called to a particular role. Salvation is a separate issue altogether.



Well, so much for simplistic logic.



What "leaves open" the conversation?

Dune,
Before you and I get sidetracked let us focus on the OP.

Specifically

If God can see the future and see the past, is it not fair to say God knows whether or not a particular baby would ever have accepted God or Jesus?

At face value this is a perfectly good question, and can not be answered without verbal gymnastics.
What is interesting to me, is that people automatically think God would have to be bad to do such a thing, and that is where the conversation needs to be focused. If this is what God does, why is it bad and not the right of God to do? Furthermore, if you can use only scripture to present your case. I have done such in this thread, and hope others will do the same.

Please try to stay on this one point for now, if you are interested.

Thanks.