babysitters who repeatedly raped a 12-week baby may have sentences increased

[kreeden]

I should explain that I don't usually back capital punishment . However , in thi case , and a few others , I can see no hope for the people involved EVER becoming " save for soceity ". The crime is so ... sick , that well it is like removing a gangrenous leg . Why keep a gangrenous leg ?

I'm not an expert . But it seems that there are those who have had life sentences and when their sentences are over , theu still aren't considered " save ". Charles Manson , Clifford Oson , Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka .. Why keep people like that alive ? In prison ?

If prison was doing anything , other then keeping them away from soceity , I would say yes . But prison does nothing for these people . Or for soceity , other then lock dangerous animals away . So why not just end it . There is no doubt that they are guitly of the crimes . No hope that they will be reformed .

 

[Quiddity]

We have the right to kill them in Texas! You do something like that and you belong to the state. You'll be in prison for a number of years knowing exactly when you will die, and then buried in an unmarked grave with a number on it instead of a name.

You Texans are far to trigger happy....

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You Texans are far to trigger happy....

I promise you - I will never lose sleep over some rapist or serial killer getting a lethal injection on my buck. They're getting off easy in my opnion, but death is the worst thing that we can do. They've taken the lives of others and they do not deserve to live, even in the worst conditions that are constitutionally available.

 

[kreeden]

This isn't about revenge , is it ?

 

[PureX]

Ah yes. Isn't it wonderful when life gives us a chance to rationalize and justify our lust for killing?

Capitol punishment is out of the question, as they have killed no one, and even if they had, because capitol punishment is unhealthy for the rest of us. Violence only inspires more violence. We all know this, but our lust for blood makes us turn into idiots regarding opportunities for violent revenge ... too many years of John Wayne and 'Dirty Harry' movies, I guess.

These people are sick, and they are dangerous, and they must be removed from society until they're no longer sick and/or dangerous. We don't know how long that will take, or if it's even possible for them to change. It doesn't matter, that's the way it has to be. In the mean time, they should be made to work to help pay for the cost of securing them.

The child will heal. The events will be forgotten (who here can remember being 12 weeks old?). And the emotional aftermath can be dealt with. Time to put the knee-jerk reactions away. Sorry folks, no hangin' parties, today.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Time to put the knee-jerk reactions away. Sorry folks, no hangin' parties, today.

We have a spot reserved for you across the street at Huntsville to protest.

 

[Quiddity]

I promise you - I will never lose sleep over some rapist or serial killer getting a lethal injection on my buck. They're getting off easy in my opnion, but death is the worst thing that we can do. They've taken the lives of others and they do not deserve to live, even in the worst conditions that are constitutionally available.

Alrighty, I can't say anything further without this turning into a capital punishment debate.

 

[Buttercup]

The child will heal. The events will be forgotten (who here can remember being 12 weeks old?). And the emotional aftermath can be dealt with. Time to put the knee-jerk reactions away. Sorry folks, no hangin' parties, today.

Sorry Purex, I usually agree with your sentiments but you are wrong here. Do you have any comprehension of what raping a 3 month old baby girl does to her internal organs? To her reproductive chances later on? There's good chance she is irreparably maimed because of this horrific crime...

And to flippantly say......she will heal, what basis is that for punishment of a crime? Because she heals and does not die the criminals should get a lesser sentence? What would your recommendation be for a crime of this nature?

Now, I would not propose a hanging party as I am against the death penalty....but I think these two should be in prison for a very, very long time.

 

[Buttons*]

You Texans are far to trigger happy....

....really?

 

[PureX]

Sorry Purex, I usually agree with your sentiments but you are wrong here. Do you have any comprehension of what raping a 3 month old baby girl does to her internal organs? To her reproductive chances later on? There's good chance she is irreparably maimed because of this horrific crime...

And to flippantly say......she will heal, what basis is that for punishment of a crime? Because she heals and does not die the criminals should get a lesser sentence? What would your recommendation be for a crime of this nature?

Now, I would not propose a hanging party as I am against the death penalty....but I think these two should be in prison for a very, very long time.

A tornado, a rapist, a terrible disease, what's the difference? A child is maimed, but alive. She will heal, she will recover, and she will learn to live her life with her scars, like anyone else. Suffering is part of the human condition. Some of it could have been avoided, some of it couldn't. Some of it is caused by other humans, and some of it isn't.

Can you lessen anyone's suffering by legalizing vengeance killing? I don't think so. In fact, I think societies that legalize vengeance killing increase the level of violence over-all (as they justify the use of violence as a solution to suffering) and create even more suffering that way.

People who willfully cause other people to suffer need to be stopped and secured. Beyond that, there isn't much else we can do. I think we all need to learn to accept that life involves some suffering, and it really doesn't matter whether it comes from an accident, a natural disaster, or from human malice.

I think the whole idea of "punishing" people for "doing wrong" is foolish. We need to grow up and recognize that morality is a personal issue. Criminality is a social problem, and responding to crime is a social security concern, and should be viewed as such. It's not about re-establishing some sort of karmic equilibrium, or getting justice through vengeance. That kind of justice doesn't exist, anyway.

 

[kreeden]

Capitol punishment is out of the question, as they have killed no one, and even if they had, because capitol punishment is unhealthy for the rest of us. Violence only inspires more violence.

Welcome to the REAL world . We kill every day . YOU kill every day . This has nothing to do with knee jerking , revenge , or lust for bleed . It doesn't even have anything to do with justice .

There are worst things then death . Death is easy . It is over , finished .

This is about living with sick , deprived creatures that are a danger to everything around them . And in my opinion , killing them is the easy , safe and sure way of ending it . Do you really think that they will " get better " ? That there is a " cure " in prison ? But as prisons stand today , it is just a waste of money to keep such alive .

Why ? Why keep them alive ?



Sorry Buttons , but the State of Texas does seen a little tigger happy at times . As I have said , I don't usually agree with capital punishment , but sometimes ... it is the only logical answer that we have . IMHO .

 

[Buttercup]

A tornado, a rapist, a terrible disease, what's the difference?

Obviously some events are out of our control and some are very much premeditated to intend harm. Some events cannot be stopped and some can, by locking the despicable behind bars to prevent future occurences.

I think the whole idea of "punishing" people for "doing wrong" is foolish.

I get the feeling you are much more of a Pacifist than I am so I am curious as to what your methods would be of taking care of those who commit crimes if we don't punish them? What are the alternatives for the victims? For society?

It's not about re-establishing some sort of karmic equilibrium, or getting justice through vengeance. That kind of justice doesn't exist, anyway.

I agree with this and I stated I am against the death penalty. And I do believe there is a type of justice we can enact. It may not correlate exactly with the heinous circumstances but a justice of some definition needs to be carried out for civil order.

 

[michel]

An update; I can't believe I'm reading this right;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/5057164.stm
A man who raped a 12-week-old baby has had his minimum jail term changed from six to eight years by appeal judges.

The five-year term originally imposed on Alan Webster's accomplice, Tanya French, will remain, the court said.
Webster, 40, was sentenced to life in January but was eligible to apply for parole after six years. French, 19, was jailed for five years.
Attorney General Lord Goldsmith QC said it was possible Webster, from Hertfordshire, would never be released.
Speaking on the Jeremy Vine Show on Radio Two, Lord Goldsmith said: "He has got a life sentence, he may never come out of prison.
"The most senior judge in the land actually said in the course of his judgement that such was his depravity that it's questionable that he will ever be released and he may die in prison."
Photographs of abuse
A panel of five senior judges at the Court of Appeal, headed by the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Phillips, ruled that Webster's six-year minimum term was too short.
But the panel ruled that having regard to French's youth and the fact she had been corrupted by Webster, her sentence fell within the range that was properly open to the sentencing judge "and should not be disturbed".

The two years added to Webster's minimum term is simply not enough

Baby's family

Webster and French, from Hatfield, raped and indecently assaulted the baby and took photographs of the abuse, their trial heard.
The baby's mother was unaware of the abuse until detectives visited her after finding photographs detailing the abuse at Webster's home.
The family said in a statement on Thursday that they were disappointed with the ruling.
"The two years added to Webster's minimum term is simply not enough. This man should never even be considered for release.
'Ludicrous' ruling
"We should have never had to fight for this review and it has only added to the trauma suffered by us all."
They added: "French was as guilty as Webster and it is frightening to think that this woman could be released in just 19 months' time and even if she serves the full term of her sentence, she'll be released in just over four years' time."
But the family added that they wanted to thank those who had helped bring the case to review, especially Lord Goldsmith. Webster had been convicted of a "serious indecent assault" on a 14-year-old girl three years before he was sentenced for the baby rape offences.

What on Earth is going on here ???? I have seen tougher sentenses passed on Fraudsters..................this isn't justice; it's a travesty.

 

[Buttercup]

Right MIchel....just what we've been discussing this afternoon...And you know what will happen?

These two will more than likely go out and commit horrible crimes like this again and again...is that justice? Not in my book. Nothing infuriates me more than to hear of someone imprisoned for a crime....let out, and then he goes out and commits the exact same crime again. Grrrrrrrrr.

I am really sorry for the child and her parents.

 

[PureX]

Obviously some events are out of our control and some are very much premeditated to intend harm. Some events cannot be stopped and some can, by locking the despicable behind bars to prevent future occurrences.

I get the feeling you are much more of a Pacifist than I am so I am curious as to what your methods would be of taking care of those who commit crimes if we don't punish them? What are the alternatives for the victims? For society?

You just pointed it out, yourself. We have to lock people who commit crimes away from society until we feel reasonably sure that they will not do so, again. In the mean time, I think people who society has to lock up should work to help support themselves.

I think we should forget the whole idea of handing out "just punishment", and think of the process purely in terms of security and rehabilitation. If a person won't follow the laws of their society, they should be removed from that society until they will follow them. The goal should be that we all follow the laws that we have all agree to follow as a collective society. The goal is not justice, or vengeance, or obeying anyone's moral agenda.

Keep in mind, too, that we have civil laws, and criminal laws. Civil laws are about achieving equity, and paying for damages, and that sort of thing, between individuals within the society. Criminal laws deal with crimes against the whole social order.

I agree with this and I stated I am against the death penalty. And I do believe there is a type of justice we can enact. It may not correlate exactly with the heinous circumstances but a justice of some definition needs to be carried out for civil order.

I disagree. Most violent crimes, for example, can never be undone. There is no "justice" for such a crime. And responding to such violence with even more violence only increases violence across the board. Yet we humans are obsessed with the idea of violent revenge. I don't know why, because it doesn't work as we imagine it will in the long run, and we all know this. But we're obsessed with it, anyway.

I don't understand it. All I can do is assume it has something to do with our natural animal lust for blood and for killing, that sees an opportunity to "justify" itself as vengeance. If you can explain it, I'm happy to listen.

 

[Buttercup]

I think we should forget the whole idea of handing out "just punishment", and think of the process purely in terms of security and rehabilitation. If a person won't follow the laws of their society, they should be removed from that society until they will follow them. The goal should be that we all follow the laws that we have all agree to follow as a collective society. The goal is not justice, or vengeance, or obeying anyone's moral agenda.

The goal is what then? I think this is basically the question I'm trying to get you to answer in all my questioning. Surely the goal cannot be only rehabilitation? That would not please the majority of Americans.

Most violent crimes, for example, can never be undone. There is no "justice" for such a crime. And responding to such violence with even more violence only increases violence across the board. Yet we humans are obsessed with the idea of violent revenge. I don't know why, because it doesn't work as we imagine it will in the long run, and we all know this. But we're obsessed with it, anyway

Well, for the third time.....I am not interested in violent punishment but I am interested in justice for the victims. And I personally think justice is an acheivable and necessary goal.

 

[kreeden]

Rehabilitation ? From prison ? Surely you joke ?

I agree that the goal should not be about revenge , morala , or even so called justice . How does one make such a thing " right " again ? It is all about bringing a reasonable amount of safety to our soceity . And putting people like that behind bars for a few years have proven to be ineffective , to say the least .

This may come as a shock to you , that child really means nothing to me . I don't know her , never met her , have no connection to her what-so-ever , other then that she { ??? } is a human being , and a young one at that . So revenge ? No . However , it had been my child ... then perhaps you could say that ?

Bloodlust ? No . I have no lust for blood . However , I have no problem with death . Death is a natural part of life . As I have said , we all kill , everyday . However , life should be respected , and honoured .

Respect . Do you respect those two ? Can you find respect in them ? They didn't rape the child , they REPEATEDLY raped her . { was it a her ?? }. Now , both " rape " and repeatedly " can mean many things . The account didn't actually say that intercourse was involved . And just what do they mean by " repeatedly ". Well , I assume that it means that it happened more then once . So that implies that the two had no remorse , and decided that they enjoyed it , or something . They decided to do it again , for whatever reason . And that is the thing that stands out for me . Because of that , I doubt that they will ever " be safe " for soceity .

So , what do we do ? Put them in prison ? Where they will be protected from other . YES ! Prisoners like that cost more to keep then others because they have to be protected . Yes , they have rights . So , they are locked away , for their own peotection , for a few years , and then released . And stats show that they will re-offend .

Now prisons do work . With more or less homest people who made a mistake . Excample of what I mean are two men I know . Friends of friends . They were rooming together , and came home from the bar , drunk , and raped a 14 year old babysitter . One admitted what he had done , and had remorse . He knew it was wrong , and it really tore him up . The other claimed he didn't recall any of it . The first guy is now living a rather normal life . The second is in a mental ward , after raping his sister-in-law .

Prison is like making kids stay after school . It works on some , but not others .

Mental wards . Now , that is a better course of action for people like the two who raped the child . But how most mental wards work , they replace the steel bars with drugs . But at least there is a better change of rehabilitation . So yes , I would back that action .

But it comes back to respect . Those two showed no respect for the life of the child . So I have no respect for their lifes . Respect is a two way thing . Having never met either of them , I can't say if I feel that mental treatment would do either any good . So I have no problem seeing them put to death . They kill Mad Cows , don't they ?

It's a Catch 22 really . These same rights that prisoners have are the very thing that ties our hands . They are human . They are each and everyone of us . But what do we do when one of us becomes a Hilter ?

 

[PureX]

The goal is what then? I think this is basically the question I'm trying to get you to answer in all my questioning. Surely the goal cannot be only rehabilitation? That would not please the majority of Americans.

The goal is for all citizens to obey the laws that they have all collectively agreed to live by. But not everyone will do so. So the question becomes, what do we do with those who will not obey the collective's laws? If the world were big enough, we could simply expel them from the collective society. But the world is not big enough for that, anymore. So we have to lock them away from the rest of us, for our own safety, until we can reasonably determine that they will obey the laws. It's not about punishment, or even rehabilitation, necessarily. It's just a security issue. The society has to be able to protect itself from the inevitable deviants who will not follow the collective's agreed upon laws.

Well, for the third time.....I am not interested in violent punishment but I am interested in justice for the victims. And I personally think justice is an achievable and necessary goal.

Then how do you propose to "punish" them? And how do you give justice to someone who has been murdered?

 

[PureX]

I agree that the goal should not be about revenge , morala , or even so called justice . How does one make such a thing " right " again ? It is all about bringing a reasonable amount of safety to our soceity . And putting people like that behind bars for a few years have proven to be ineffective , to say the least .

That's because we're imposing set time spent in prison as a punishment, and the criminl gets out at the end of that sentance regardless of his/her attitude. We should forget about imposing prison terms. Instead, criminals would be locked up until we can be reasonably certain that they will no longer break the laws. If their crimes were not violent, and did minor damage to members of society, and they obey the rules in prison, I would imagine that they would be deemed safe to release relative soon. If their crimes were violent, and citizens were seriously harmed, then the level of assurance necessary becomes much higher, and it will be far more difficult for the criminal to convince us that he/she can be released safely. And they will not be released until they do so. They may well never be released.

This is how I think we should deal with criminal behavior.

 

[Buttercup]

The goal is for all citizens to obey the laws that they have all collectively agreed to live by. But not everyone will do so. So the question becomes, what do we do with those who will not obey the collective's laws? If the world were big enough, we could simply expel them from the collective society. But the world is not big enough for that, anymore. So we have to lock them away from the rest of us, for our own safety, until we can reasonably determine that they will obey the laws. It's not about punishment, or even rehabilitation, necessarily. It's just a security issue. The society has to be able to protect itself from the inevitable deviants who will not follow the collective's agreed upon laws.

I would say in the end, we are mostly in agreement about the issue. Looks like our basic means to describe this scenario just differs and took awhile for us to be on the same page. At least that's my take on it.

Then how do you propose to "punish" them? And how do you give justice to someone who has been murdered?

After I wrote that last sentence or two I realized that I do not think there is equitable justice in the event of murder and didn't mean to imply there was. I feel that point goes without saying. As we've said, we owe it to society to keep hardened, unrepentant criminals off the street to protect all of us. But, I also feel it's necessary to give the victim's families some sense of the act of justice being played out......hence, stiff jail time. Maybe you just don't like the word justice used this way...it's just how I look at it.