• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Baha'i and Islamic concepts of Prophets - Similar or irreconcilably different?

Are Islamic and Baha'i concepts of Prophethood reconcilable?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • No

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • Mostly reconcilable

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • Mostly irreconcilable

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    15

firedragon

Veteran Member
Nabi is a Messenger and Rasool is a Prophet. Not all Messengers are Prophets. Examples include Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. Examples of Prophets include Jesus, Muhammad and Moses. Prophets reveal the laws. Messengers are under the shadow of the law.

I just thought I should say this. This is purely as an English translation matter I thought you should know.

Your comment says
Nabi=Messenger
Rasool=prophet

Generally this is not the Muslim understanding or translation. This is conflicting with the Bahai view or translation if what you say about the Bahai translation is correct.

In Muslim translations it is
Nabi=prophet
Rasool=Messenger

Thus, this is exactly the opposite of what you said. But this is only a matter of translation, but why it matters to you is because you deny the Arabic roots and pretty much decline going down the root of the language Bahaullah wrote the Kathabul akdas in. Thus, you would only discuss in English. Thats fine, but this is the reason I was asking for clarification on what your standard is. And your standard is exactly the opposite of the Muslim standard.

That was just for your information.

Peace.
 

Niblo

Active Member
Premium Member
Thanks for pointing that out, I never noticed it before. I do not believe that Baha'u'llah is wrong about David being a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God, so that means that Some Answered Questions is incorrect, unless Abdu'l-Baha was referring to another David.

Thank for your courteous reply. Insha'Allah, I will come back to you before the weekend. Work stuff to do :eek:.

Have a great week, and may the Exalted bless you and those you love.

@adrian009 : Ditto for you, too :blush:
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I know its consistent with the Bahai theology. Western scholars view on a naturalistic Muhammed and Quran and Islam is not relevant to the discussion because the Bahai's believe the Quran is Gods word, unless you are referring to western scholars who do too.

I addressed your statement. So please accept or decline based on your personal statement that I addressed.



Alright. So now that you have clarified Rasool is a prophet in your words, the Quran says "we do not make any distinction between any of his rasools".



I understand. But this is just one sentence. Anyway, its your prerogative if you cannot accept it because you dont have a translation. This is supposedly the Babs writing.



I have outlined the conflict. The metaphor you use is not relevant to the Quran, and is conflicting. If you are interested, I will cut and paste my statement which I made three times already or at least twice which you seem not to address at all. The Quran is in conflict to the Bahai belief.

Nevertheless, the point is that the Quranic injunction is that "La ilaaha illalah". Nothing is divine, other than God. Thus, you have to decide if the Bab, and of course Bahaullah had any divinity, or they were all human. Because, the Quran states very clearly, that "La ilaaha illa huwa". There is no divinity whatsoever. This is the whole concept of the Quran. So this kind of prophet or messenger (will see after you define them) in the Bahai faith are absolutely irreconcilable to the Rasool and Nabi in the Quran.



Thats not relevant to the Quran and its text which you believe is Gods word.



I didnt say that. So its a strawman.



Absolutely untrue. Muslims dont think Muhammed was a "manifestation of God", the Quran doesnt say it, Muhammed has no divinity, neither does Jesus or any other person mentioned or not mentioned anywhere. They are not divine. Thats the whole point. So the Bahai belief is in direct conflict with the Quran you are ignoring brother.



That is not relevant. You are creating a new caricature for you to address. You have not addressed the whole point for which you even asked for Quranic verses. I will cut and paste again so that you can objectively respond.

Quran says clearly not to idolise anyone or anything. Not even your own wishful thinking or ego. Religious leaders and scholars (9:31), money and wealth (18:42), angels, dead saints, messengers and prophets (16:20, 21; 35:14; 46:5, 6; 53:23), and ego/wishful thinking (25:43, 45:23) all can be idolized. Idolisation if you read is making someone ilah. Itthahadha ilaahahoo. Take as "ilah" or "Deity/divinity".

Nothing is divine. No one is divine. Only God is. Thats the whole concept of the Qur'an.


Peace.

I speak English and do not speak Arabic. I rely on English translations of both the Quran and Baha’i writings to make my assessment. I accept my error in mixing up Nabi and Rasool. The principle stands of distinction between Nabi and Rasool. If there is no distinction between the Prophets of God such as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad then why were they different people with different messages at different points in history? It is the essence of their message that is the same. All were Prophets of God sent forth to guide the people to the straight path and led them from error. They each spoke in a language and manner that could be understood in part by at least some of the people they interacted and taught. That is one reason why Muhammad spoke of there being no distinction between the Prophets IMHO.

You reference 10 verses from 8 sura in support of your assertion. Here are verses in English with accompanying relevant passages:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth!

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him: (far is He) from having the parents they associate (with him).

Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected even though the unbelievers may detest (it).

It is He who hath sent His apostle with guidance and religion of truth to proclaim it over all religions even though the pagans may detest (it).


O ye who believe! there are indeed many among the priests and anchorites who in falsehood devour the substance of men and hinder (them) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty.

Quran 9:29-34

There is not a single verse within this passage or any of the passages of the Quran you referenced that contradicts what I believe in as a Baha’i. I could provide commentary and analysis but that would not satisfy you. I can not quote from the Arabic so maybe the problem is translation, yet many English translations are available.

The key to 9:31 is that Jesus was not literally the son of Allah. Do not worship Jesus or Mary as deities. Of course the Christian Gospel tells us Jesus was the Son of God. This is a theological narrative, not a literal truth. Christians turn to Mary and Jesus in prayer it is an aid to worshiping God and that is fine. There are of course Christians who believe Jesus is God incarnate and worship Him as such. That is certainly a problem Muhammad highlights. There will be Christians who go too far with their veneration of Mary. But there is no contradiction between the Quranic and Gospel accounts for a Baha’i. There is no contradiction between the Baha’i writings and Holy Quran. I realise you can not agree or accept this and wish you well.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Islam and the Baha'i Faith are two independent religions. Islam emerged from the Arabian Peninsula during the seventh century and was founded by Muhammad. Both Muslims and Baha'is believe Muhammad to be a Messenger of God and the Quran to be the authenticated Word of God. The Quran refers to Prophets and Messengers throughout multiple passages. According to wikipedia:

Prophets in Islam are individuals to serve as examples of ideal human behavior and to spread God's message on Earth. Some prophets are categorized as messengers, those who transmit divine revelation, most of them through the interaction of an angel. Muslims believe that many prophets existed, including many not mentioned in the Quran. The Quran states: "There is a Messenger for every community". Belief in the Islamic prophets is one of the six articles of the Islamic faith.

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

There is much that could be said about the nature of Prophethood in Islam. It is a huge topic.

During the nineteenth century within Shi'a Islamic Persia (now Iran) the Baha'i Faith emerged. During a time of Messianic expectation in regards a redeemer of Islam known as the Mahdi, hundreds of thousands accepted the Bab as being this redeemer and followed His Cause. The conservative and fanatical government and clergy regarded this new movement with disdain and eventually thousands of the early Babis were put to death including the Bab Himself.

The Central Purpose of the Bab's message was to prepare His followers for One whose cause was even greater than His own. That Promised One was widely recognized as being Baha'u'llah by the vast majority of the Babis who became Baha'is. Baha'u'llah elaborated on the concept of Prophethood in one of His early and most important works, the Kitab-i-Iqan. There are many other works through Baha'u'llah's forty year mission between receiving His summons to His Divine Mission while imprisoned in the Siyah Chal, in Tehran 1852 (The Message Baha’u’llah Received in the Black Pit) until His passing in a mansion in Bahji 1892. In His Will and Testament Baha'u'llah appointed His eldest Son, 'Abdu'l-Baha as successor and His elaborations on His Father's works are considered authoritative.

'Abdu'l-Baha elaborates on the concept of Prophets and Messengers of God as follows:

"The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being."

"God sent all His Prophets into the world with one aim, to sow in the hearts of men love and goodwill, and for this great purpose, they were willing to suffer and to die. All the sacred Books were written to lead and direct man into the ways of love and unity; and yet, in spite of all this, we have the sad spectacle of war and bloodshed in our midst."


Manifestation of God (Baháʼí Faith) - Wikipedia

Of course there is much that could be said about the concept of Prophethood in the Baha'i Faith. Like Islam, it is a huge topic. However my question is a simple one. Is the concept of Prophethood in the Baha'i Faith compatible with that in Islam? Are the concepts of Prophethood within the two religions so fundamentally different as to irreconcilable?

Perhaps God scrambled languages, made races, and dispersed people as a test to see if we could overcome such obstacles and merge when we are sufficiently mature to do so? Maybe any one religion doesn't have the whole message of God, and maybe by merging all religions we can figure out the total message and finally figure out what God was saying.

We still have to do more than listen and understand. We have to obey God.

For example, we certainly heard the message of the 10 commandments of God that Moses brought to us. We certainly understand those commandments (such as thou shalt not kill). But knowing, and understanding, isn't the same as putting our knowledge into practice.

For example, the war in Babylon, Iraq was strictly forbidden by God in Revelation, and God say "thou shalt not kill." But lured by greed, fear, and lies, America defied God.

We have to stop thinking of the bible as some dusty text with obscure stories, and start thinking of it as a manual to live by today, with a real and powerful and living God that can interact in our own lives in a real and meaningful way. When I talk about Revelation as instructions for us today, people think that such messages would be impossible.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But there is no contradiction between the Quranic and Gospel accounts for a Baha’i. There is no contradiction between the Baha’i writings and Holy Quran.
The apparent contradictions and thus the disagreements between Christians, Muslims and Baha'is come about as a result of how the scriptures are interpreted, what different people believe they mean. Why can't people understand what is so very simple? If they could at least understand that this is the reason for the disagreements then that would be a start. I think it is because of ego that people cannot even entertain the possibility that there can be many different meanings to verses other than the meaning they ascribe. That means there can be different interpretations of the same verses, although some verses have a plain meaning.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I have read it many times but I do not mark the references. It registers in my mind. To give you the links will require a huge amount of research which I am not interested in doing.

If ur not interested its fine. All you have to do is just say so. Have a good day.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I speak English and do not speak Arabic. I rely on English translations of both the Quran and Baha’i writings to make my assessment. I accept my error in mixing up Nabi and Rasool. The principle stands of distinction between Nabi and Rasool. If there is no distinction between the Prophets of God such as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad then why were they different people with different messages at different points in history? It is the essence of their message that is the same. All were Prophets of God sent forth to guide the people to the straight path and led them from error. They each spoke in a language and manner that could be understood in part by at least some of the people they interacted and taught. That is one reason why Muhammad spoke of there being no distinction between the Prophets IMHO.

So what you are saying is that, since the Quran is saying no distinction between them, and that Muhammed and Moses as examples are different, the "QURAN IS WRONG" right? So you believe the Quran is Gods word, but its wrong.

Anyway, the Quran saying "distinction" does not mean they looked the same, had the same name, had the same amount of hair on their body and head, and smelt the same, or/and their messages were the same.

Anyway, the word here is Farak. What it is saying is not to make distinction between them. That means no one is higher, or lower. They are all the same.

So you have to either accept or decline based on what it says. Either you believe the Quran is Gods word, or believe it is not, and that it was wrong. Please dont create a strawman to argue against. I hope you understand.

You reference 10 verses from 8 sura in support of your assertion. Here are verses in English with accompanying relevant passages:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth (even if they are) of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth!

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him: (far is He) from having the parents they associate (with him).

Fain would they extinguish Allah's light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected even though the unbelievers may detest (it).

It is He who hath sent His apostle with guidance and religion of truth to proclaim it over all religions even though the pagans may detest (it).


O ye who believe! there are indeed many among the priests and anchorites who in falsehood devour the substance of men and hinder (them) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty.

Quran 9:29-34

There is not a single verse within this passage or any of the passages of the Quran you referenced that contradicts what I believe in as a Baha’i. I could provide commentary and analysis but that would not satisfy you. I can not quote from the Arabic so maybe the problem is translation, yet many English translations are available.

The key to 9:31 is that Jesus was not literally the son of Allah. Do not worship Jesus or Mary as deities. Of course the Christian Gospel tells us Jesus was the Son of God. This is a theological narrative, not a literal truth. Christians turn to Mary and Jesus in prayer it is an aid to worshiping God and that is fine. There are of course Christians who believe Jesus is God incarnate and worship Him as such. That is certainly a problem Muhammad highlights. There will be Christians who go too far with their veneration of Mary. But there is no contradiction between the Quranic and Gospel accounts for a Baha’i. There is no contradiction between the Baha’i writings and Holy Quran. I realise you can not agree or accept this and wish you well.

I will break it down for you.

Do you believe Bahaullah is a divine being?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
The apparent contradictions and thus the disagreements between Christians, Muslims and Baha'is come about as a result of how the scriptures are interpreted, what different people believe they mean. Why can't people understand what is so very simple? If they could at least understand that this is the reason for the disagreements then that would be a start. I think it is because of ego that people cannot even entertain the possibility that there can be many different meanings to verses other than the meaning they ascribe. That means there can be different interpretations of the same verses, although some verses have a plain meaning.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 175

Its true people will interpret differently. But sis, making the statement that people interpret differently is not an argument. It is a generalisation, or a general dismissal.

Which interpretation are you speaking about? Which verse? What is your interpretation? What is the linguistic explanation to that interpretation? What are you practicing in hermeneutics?

Please explain.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
So what you are saying is that, since the Quran is saying no distinction between them, and that Muhammed and Moses as examples are different, the "QURAN IS WRONG" right? So you believe the Quran is Gods word, but its wrong.

Anyway, the Quran saying "distinction" does not mean they looked the same, had the same name, had the same amount of hair on their body and head, and smelt the same, or/and their messages were the same.

Anyway, the word here is Farak. What it is saying is not to make distinction between them. That means no one is higher, or lower. They are all the same.

So you have to either accept or decline based on what it says. Either you believe the Quran is Gods word, or believe it is not, and that it was wrong. Please dont create a strawman to argue against. I hope you understand.

Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1/ Do you believe God revealed the Quran to Jesus and Moses as He did to Muhammad?

2/ How do you see Muhammad, Moses and Jesus as being the same and not distinct from each other?

I will break it down for you.

Do you believe Bahaullah is a divine being?

No.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Its true people will interpret differently. But sis, making the statement that people interpret differently is not an argument. It is a generalisation, or a general dismissal.
It is not a dismissal, just a reality. I am not looking to make an argument.
Which interpretation are you speaking about? Which verse? What is your interpretation? What is the linguistic explanation to that interpretation? What are you practicing in hermeneutics?

Please explain.
I am referring to any and all interpretations people make whereby they assign meanings to scriptures. These are personal interpretations, what they believe that scripture means.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Let me ask you a couple of questions.

1/ Do you believe God revealed the Quran to Jesus and Moses as He did to Muhammad?

2/ How do you see Muhammad, Moses and Jesus as being the same and not distinct from each other?

1. No.
2. They are of the same importance to us. No discrimination.

I am referring to any and all interpretations people make whereby they assign meanings to scriptures. These are personal interpretations, what they believe that scripture means.

Again, that's too general. Could you give some specifics as I asked?

Which interpretation are you speaking about? Which verse? What is your interpretation? What is the linguistic explanation to that interpretation? What are you practicing in hermeneutics?

If its a general comment and you dont have anything specific in relation to the topic at hand its your prerogative to not answer this.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps God scrambled languages, made races, and dispersed people as a test to see if we could overcome such obstacles and merge when we are sufficiently mature to do so? Maybe any one religion doesn't have the whole message of God, and maybe by merging all religions we can figure out the total message and finally figure out what God was saying.

We still have to do more than listen and understand. We have to obey God.

For example, we certainly heard the message of the 10 commandments of God that Moses brought to us. We certainly understand those commandments (such as thou shalt not kill). But knowing, and understanding, isn't the same as putting our knowledge into practice.

For example, the war in Babylon, Iraq was strictly forbidden by God in Revelation, and God say "thou shalt not kill." But lured by greed, fear, and lies, America defied God.

We have to stop thinking of the bible as some dusty text with obscure stories, and start thinking of it as a manual to live by today, with a real and powerful and living God that can interact in our own lives in a real and meaningful way. When I talk about Revelation as instructions for us today, people think that such messages would be impossible.

What is clear today is the easy access to each other’s religious scriptures and traditions. Many of us can easily access a good English translation of the Quran, scholar commentary on any of the Biblical books along with Buddhist and Hindu scriptures. We can reach across the divide and talk to people of another faith we formerly regarded as ‘other’. With building friendships and knowledge across faiths it becomes readily apparent that each faith tradition can be a living faith if we each make efforts to live in accordance with the highest principles of our respective faiths. Within each Faith we see people who live in a manner worthy of admiration.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If there is no distinction between the Prophets of God such as Moses, Jesus and Muhammad then why were they different people with different messages at different points in history? It is the essence of their message that is the same. All were Prophets of God sent forth to guide the people to the straight path and led them from error. They each spoke in a language and manner that could be understood in part by at least some of the people they interacted and taught. That is one reason why Muhammad spoke of there being no distinction between the Prophets
Who else in the Quran is included on the list as being "Prophets" along with Moses, Jesus and Muhammad?

Many of us can easily access a good English translation of the Quran, scholar commentary on any of the Biblical books along with Buddhist and Hindu scriptures.
Which books from Buddhism and Hinduism do Baha'i consider to be Scripture? And, does the Quran also say that those books are Scripture?
 
Top