Baha'i and Messengers

[Trailblazer]

Throwing it back at me again.

What's the matter, you cannot take what you dish out?

 

[CG Didymus]

We have a pretty good idea what the Messengers said other than what the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings said, and it is up to your own understanding whether you like any of it.

Okay, did Jesus say this?

Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” Luke 24:39
​

Since Baha'is don't believe Jesus physically came back to life, then I'd imagine that Baha'is don't believe that Jesus could have possibly said this. And it that is true, then what else did the gospel writers make up and add in? Here's a quote...

We cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá’ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá’u’lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.

Shoghi Effendi, Extracts From The Bahá’í Writings And From Letters Of The Guardian And The Universal House Of Justice On The Old And New Testaments​

I can believe that things in the Bible aren't true. I just don't believe that historical events described in the Bible are said by Baha'is to be symbolic. I think the writers told of these events as if that is exactly what happened. Things like the resurrection of Jesus or him walking on water. Or Moses parting the seas or Elijah calling down fire. I think they lose their impact if everybody was told and knew that these stories were fictional and only had a "deep" spiritual symbolic meaning to them.

 

[lukethethird]

A plain and logical proof of a Messenger from God, is the Message they give.

The Message has an obvious effect on the people who embrace it. It changes lives, it changes the direction of Nations and more importantly it stands the test of time.

All this will unfold even when the powers to be in that day try with all their might to extinguish that Message. They can put a Messenger of God to death, they can banish them to far away lands, but the Message will permeate the hearts of all that embrace the Spirit of the Message.

I will not argue the point, as that point is an obvious rational proof and some of the Names behind the proof are known to the vast majority of humanity. Some will embrace One, some will embrace a few, some will embrace them all and some will choose to ignore them all.

Regards Tony

There is no message, other than that which rings hollow.

 

[Sheldon]

No chocolate.

I know, just finished my dinner, if there were chocolate in the house I'd be all over it like a rash right now...

Still, I'm having a glass of Shiraz, and more is being delivered tomorrow. I have until midnight to resist the urge to add chocolate to the delivery...

 

[Sheldon]

So God, with Limitless power, limitless knowledge and limitless wisdom etc, is being judged by a very limited human mind, there is the flaw.

Regards Tony

What type of mind did you use to arrive at that arbitrary and subjective conclusion?

 

[Sheldon]

The squid would be happier if you left them to live.

If a squid could express such a desire that might be true, but everything we eat has to cost some species it's existence, the earth's resources are finite after all. Even if you become a vegan, what you eat will necessarily mean other organisms won't survive.

This is not to decry vegans of course, or anyone who chooses to try and limit their impact on the planet and other living things. I didn't choose to be born, and have chosen not to have children, so at least the impact of my life on the planet will end with me, but I don't get all precious about it, or decry those who choose to have children.

 

[Audie]

What type of mind did you use to arrive at that arbitrary and subjective conclusion?

Theists are big on " judging" God to be just, merciful etc .

 

[Audie]

If a squid could express such a desire that might be true, but everything we eat has to cost some species it's existence, the earth's resources are finite after all. Even if you become a vegan, what you eat will necessarily mean other organisms won't survive.

This is not to decry vegans of course, or anyone who chooses to try and limit their impact on the planet and other living things. I didn't choose to be born, and have chosen not to have children, so at least the impact of my life on the planet will end with me, but I don't get all precious about it, or decry those who choose to have children.

Seriously. Every inch devoted to vego- food is
wildlife habitat subtracted, plants and animals dying.

 

[CG Didymus]

Are you seeking to change people's personal belief, so it suit you self better? A believer will believe in the religious faith they have. Just because we believe differently does not mean we can tell the other "you are wrong"
Its ok to ask "why, how" but what is the goal of saying " you just twist your answers?"

I can give you that answer " a believer will try to find a way to get the person criticing them, to get a sense of why and how we believe"
And that can sometimes look like a way of avoiding your question, it is not, it is to find the right way so you can understand why we believe what we do. Without use of judgment.

Who and what is God in your religion? Do you know him can you know him?

The way some Baha'is believe makes God completely unknowable except for whatever Baha'u'llah has said about God. Probably lots of things in the Quran are acceptable also. But, apparently, Baha'is reject the things said about God speaking, appearing or even sending an angel. How many times in the Bible did God give the people "signs" or prophecies that proved that he was real? Like Elijah having God send fire down from heaven to consume his sacrifice.

Are there angels in Islam? Because in the Bible, as I'm sure you know, angels were sent to a lot of people. That's God finding a way to communicate to people without him only going through a messenger.

Did God speak from heaven? If the Bible stories are true, then yes, he did and he can speak when he wants to.

Now if the Baha'is want to say those Bible stories aren't true... they never happened. I can believe that. But then they shouldn't claim that the Bible is the Word of God. But, of course, we know they do say that they believe in the Bible and in Jesus. But they put their interpretation on the Bible and accept somethings and reject others by saying that those things can't be taken literally.

You like them. You support them, fine. But, when it comes down to it, they don't believe Islam or Sufi beliefs are completely accurate. They believe the Baha'i Faith has replaced all previous religions and has a new message for a new day that has to be believed and followed in order to get to peace on unity.

If true, great. But, to make sure, I think their beliefs and claims should be challenged and verified. And, as we can see, verifying and proving is not easy and maybe impossible. But... should "Truth" and God be impossible to prove?

But if we're just going to tolerate each other and let people believe what they wish, then that's fine too. But... then they shouldn't make claims and try to make converts. But Baha'is are called to go teach the Word...

Whoso ariseth among you to teach the Cause of his Lord, let him, before all else, teach his own self, that his speech may attract the hearts of them that hear him. Unless he teacheth his own self, the words of his mouth will not influence the heart of the seeker. Take heed, O people, lest ye be of them that give good counsel to others but forget to follow it themselves.

Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.
​

Here's a couple more...

The time is too short to spend years preparing yourself to teach by the indirect approach. The world is ready for the direct Message, and it would be much better to equip yourself to do direct Bahá’í teaching.
Shoghi Effendi, Japan Will Turn Ablaze, p. 103

There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 127​

 

[Secret Chief]

If a squid could express such a desire that might be true, but everything we eat has to cost some species it's existence, the earth's resources are finite after all. Even if you become a vegan, what you eat will necessarily mean other organisms won't survive.

This is not to decry vegans of course, or anyone who chooses to try and limit their impact on the planet and other living things. I didn't choose to be born, and have chosen not to have children, so at least the impact of my life on the planet will end with me, but I don't get all precious about it, or decry those who choose to have children.

Yes, limiting is all we can do.

 

[lukethethird]

It appears your OP was not interested as to what Baha'is have to say on the topic.

Regards Tony

This is really rich coming from the one that started a thread on so called new atheists whose OP was entirely drawn up by a religious fanatic, can you say irony?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Who and what is God in your religion? Do you know him can you know him?

The way some Baha'is believe makes God completely unknowable except for whatever Baha'u'llah has said about God. Probably lots of things in the Quran are acceptable also. But, apparently, Baha'is reject the things said about God speaking, appearing or even sending an angel. How many times in the Bible did God give the people "signs" or prophecies that proved that he was real? Like Elijah having God send fire down from heaven to consume his sacrifice.

Are there angels in Islam? Because in the Bible, as I'm sure you know, angels were sent to a lot of people. That's God finding a way to communicate to people without him only going through a messenger.

Did God speak from heaven? If the Bible stories are true, then yes, he did and he can speak when he wants to.

Now if the Baha'is want to say those Bible stories aren't true... they never happened. I can believe that. But then they shouldn't claim that the Bible is the Word of God. But, of course, we know they do say that they believe in the Bible and in Jesus. But they put their interpretation on the Bible and accept somethings and reject others by saying that those things can't be taken literally.

You like them. You support them, fine. But, when it comes down to it, they don't believe Islam or Sufi beliefs are completely accurate. They believe the Baha'i Faith has replaced all previous religions and has a new message for a new day that has to be believed and followed in order to get to peace on unity.

If true, great. But, to make sure, I think their beliefs and claims should be challenged and verified. And, as we can see, verifying and proving is not easy and maybe impossible. But... should "Truth" and God be impossible to prove?

But if we're just going to tolerate each other and let people believe what they wish, then that's fine too. But... then they shouldn't make claims and try to make converts. But Baha'is are called to go teach the Word...

Whoso ariseth among you to teach the Cause of his Lord, let him, before all else, teach his own self, that his speech may attract the hearts of them that hear him. Unless he teacheth his own self, the words of his mouth will not influence the heart of the seeker. Take heed, O people, lest ye be of them that give good counsel to others but forget to follow it themselves.

Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Bahá, for God hath prescribed unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the most meritorious of all deeds.
​

Here's a couple more...

The time is too short to spend years preparing yourself to teach by the indirect approach. The world is ready for the direct Message, and it would be much better to equip yourself to do direct Bahá’í teaching.
Shoghi Effendi, Japan Will Turn Ablaze, p. 103

There is so much suffering, such a great and desperate need for a true remedy and the Bahá’ís should realize their sacred obligation is to deliver the message to their fellowmen at once, and on as large a scale as possible. If they fail to do so, they are really partly responsible for prolonging the agony of humanity.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 127​

I can only speak for my understanding of God through the spiritual practice ( not religious)
Right now my understanding of God is that the quality of God arise from within the practitioner/believer, so as long we are in human body we can only portray Gods attributes or quality. Outside of us God is formless ( no physically body)
What I say here may be different than what other sufis understand or what other Muslims understand.

Yes sufism do speak of angels as messengers of God.
Yes, God was speaking to people in the past, my understanding of why it does not happen anymore is due to humans ego and ignorance of the spiritual realm.

Baha'i do not believe exactly the same as others, just like Sufiism does not teach exactly the same as mainstream Islam. But it does not make it wrong. They have a different understanding of certain aspects of life. And it does not bother me at all. I have no reason for challenging othe4 faiths.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is no message, other than that which rings hollow.

That is fine if that works for you.

Queen Marie of Romania says it all for me, I see she offered very wise words.

“Some of those of my caste,” she, in a personal letter, has significantly testified, “wonder at and disapprove my courage to step forward pronouncing words not habitual for crowned heads to pronounce, but I advance by an inner urge I cannot resist. With bowed head I recognize that I too am but an instrument in greater Hands, and I rejoice in the knowledge.”

In the first of these testimonies she affirmed that the writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha are “a great cry toward peace, reaching beyond all limits of frontiers, above all dissensions about rites and dogmas… It is a wondrous message that Baha’u’llah and His Son Abdu’l-Baha have given us! They have not set it up aggressively, knowing that the germ of eternal truth which lies at its core cannot but take root and spread… It is Christ’s message taken up anew, in the same words almost, but adapted to the thousand years and more difference that lies between the year one and today…. If ever,” wrote the Queen, “the name of Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha comes to your attention, do not put their writings from you. Search out their books, and let their glorious, peace-bringing, love-creating words and lessons sink into your hearts as they have into mine… Seek them and be the happier.”



Regards Tony

 

[lukethethird]

That is fine if that works for you.

Queen Marie of Romania says it all for me, I see she offered very wise words.

“Some of those of my caste,” she, in a personal letter, has significantly testified, “wonder at and disapprove my courage to step forward pronouncing words not habitual for crowned heads to pronounce, but I advance by an inner urge I cannot resist. With bowed head I recognize that I too am but an instrument in greater Hands, and I rejoice in the knowledge.”

In the first of these testimonies she affirmed that the writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha are “a great cry toward peace, reaching beyond all limits of frontiers, above all dissensions about rites and dogmas… It is a wondrous message that Baha’u’llah and His Son Abdu’l-Baha have given us! They have not set it up aggressively, knowing that the germ of eternal truth which lies at its core cannot but take root and spread… It is Christ’s message taken up anew, in the same words almost, but adapted to the thousand years and more difference that lies between the year one and today…. If ever,” wrote the Queen, “the name of Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha comes to your attention, do not put their writings from you. Search out their books, and let their glorious, peace-bringing, love-creating words and lessons sink into your hearts as they have into mine… Seek them and be the happier.”

View attachment 59055

Regards Tony

I read about your messenger that wants to pry into all the bedrooms of the world, and prevent people form socializing over a drink. I get that message loud and clear.

regards,

lukethethird

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is really rich coming from the one that started a thread on so called new atheists whose OP was entirely drawn up by a religious fanatic, can you say irony?

How are you Luke, I hope you are as well and happy as I am.

I post some challenging remarks, all of which I am happy to discuss up to a point. Argument is that point of no return, as when we argue no one has a valid point.

A debate to me is a conflict of ideas, it does not need to be an argument, but to me it turns that way when the person is insulted and not the point of the discussion.

You may note from a Faith perspective a purpose is to unify hearts in a spiritual bond. Ask any long term happy married couples, they will tell you material bonds and attraction do not last, they are fleeting and prone to be dissolved. The connection with the heart and soul of your partner is imperative.

So faith is to strengthen that bond so it extends to the family, tribe, city, nation and now global.

As an Athiest, if you can assist with that bond of hearts, then what is the issue, you will not be aiming at the dissolution of any person of faith that has the same aim?

My thread on Athiest asked the question, if it's aim is to remove the spiritual bond of being a caring and loving part of all humanity, that we can all share, will that be the downfall of humanity?

Remember it is offered if religion becomes the cause of disunity, we are better off without it.

RegardsTony

 

[CG Didymus]

A plain and logical proof of a Messenger from God, is the Message they give.

The Message has an obvious effect on the people who embrace it. It changes lives, it changes the direction of Nations and more importantly it stands the test of time.

By the time the Christian message really got going people were being told that they were sinners. That they had inherited a sin nature from Adam. That Satan and his demons were trying to get them to turn away from God. That Jesus was God.

Protestants and Catholics used force to convert people in your country and around the world. So, Christianity did change lives and shaped nations. And it has stood the test of time. But do you and I believe in their doctrines and dogmas? Do we believe that Satan is real? Do we believe in the Trinity? Do we believe that Jesus is the only way? Yet, Christianity is still hanging on to the top spot of having the most people believing all those things that you and I believe are false.

I think Baha'is would be better off just to say, "Look at the Baha'i Faith. Look at our teachings. We believe it can unite the world and bring all people together in peace and harmony."

 

[CG Didymus]

That is fine if that works for you.

Queen Marie of Romania says it all for me, I see she offered very wise words.

“Some of those of my caste,” she, in a personal letter, has significantly testified, “wonder at and disapprove my courage to step forward pronouncing words not habitual for crowned heads to pronounce, but I advance by an inner urge I cannot resist. With bowed head I recognize that I too am but an instrument in greater Hands, and I rejoice in the knowledge.”

In the first of these testimonies she affirmed that the writings of Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha are “a great cry toward peace, reaching beyond all limits of frontiers, above all dissensions about rites and dogmas… It is a wondrous message that Baha’u’llah and His Son Abdu’l-Baha have given us! They have not set it up aggressively, knowing that the germ of eternal truth which lies at its core cannot but take root and spread… It is Christ’s message taken up anew, in the same words almost, but adapted to the thousand years and more difference that lies between the year one and today…. If ever,” wrote the Queen, “the name of Baha’u’llah or Abdu’l-Baha comes to your attention, do not put their writings from you. Search out their books, and let their glorious, peace-bringing, love-creating words and lessons sink into your hearts as they have into mine… Seek them and be the happier.”

View attachment 59055

Regards Tony

What's the headdress all about?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What's the headdress all about?

I liked the photo, it was a gift, story here.

Shining Lamp: Queen Marie of Romania (1875–1938) | Brilliant Star

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think Baha'is would be better off just to say, "Look at the Baha'i Faith. Look at our teachings. We believe it can unite the world and bring all people together in peace and harmony."

I see that is not possible without acknowledging the Oneness of the Messengers CG.

You also have to remember that Jesus mission was not to bring in the 'Day of God', it was an introduction to our personal connection to God, how individual choices add to the collective whole.

Matthew 10:34-36
Not Peace, but a Sword
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.

The issue became that individual choices were overwhelming the whole, so Muhammad came to show that submission to the Message as a united whole was required. In the process Muhammad corrected the additions of doctrine of the few, that now commanded the whole to believe, like the trinity, under threat of herasy.

The whole picture is needed, if we do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

Queen Marie of Romania says it all for me, I see she offered very wise words.

Appeal to authority fallacy.