Baha'i and Messengers

[lukethethird]

It’s signs are everywhere. Every atom in existence reflects intelligence.

How so?

 

[CG Didymus]

Frankly, it's insulting. I'd far rather go to the source that someone's ridiculously poor interpretation of it. Initially, maybe 4 years ago, that's how I got dragged into this foray, lol.

Well, it was important that you did, because a lot of us, including me, assumed Hinduism was the name of the religion and then there were many sects of Hinduism. It was assumed by some of us that all Hindus believed in Krishna. When I was first taught about the Baha'i Faith, I assumed they were telling me the truth. And what did all that "assuming" get me? Baha'is talk of not taking the word of other people but to personally investigate the truth. That's all I'm doing. But it is still hard to get Truth from people. It's always their truth. And that would be okay if some people didn't go around preaching their truth is The Truth. But what can they do? Their God and religion tells them that they must go tell the world.

 

[CG Didymus]

Complete BS and a lie.
1. Do you accept that Lord Vishnu, an important member of the numerous Hindu divinity (male and female), appeared on earth as Rama and Krishna?
2. Do you accept when Buddha says there is no soul (Anatta)?
3. Do you accept that Jesus is son of God?
4. Do you accept that Mohammad's message is the last that God will ever send?

Okay... maybe a few conditions.

 

[F1fan]

Hindism and Buddhism are hard to make fit in with the Abrahamic religions. But it would be nice if there was only one loving God that was kind enough to send special people now and again to teach how to live. But by the looks of things, that is very difficult for me to believe.

What I have noticed in my 58 years of living is that there are many really good ordinary people who just go about living their lives. They aren't big shots. But we see a lot of influential people through history who took charge, and were evil people. And there were plenty of misguided good and evil ordinary people supporting them. Many CEOs are sociopaths. It is a beneficial defect to have when making hard business decisions that can harm people.

Why did so many bad people need to be created by a loving God, that now wants unity?

 

[Trailblazer]

1. That is what Shoghi's apologistics and not Bahaollah's writing.
2. If it is not official then why are you quoting it here?
You have no respect for truth.

I posted it because you asked for it.
The second passage was Baha'u'llah's Writings.

 

[CG Didymus]

Right.

It's as if certain theists has some sort of extra sensory perception that allows them to sense a supernatural or divine, and we atheists just don't have this ability.

Oddly, it's the opposite. Humans evolved with an innate, evolved train to believe in social/tribal concepts, and religion is the result. It's estimated about 85% of humans are "wired for God". This leaves the rest of us 15% as non-believers. So a large majority have a prevalence to adopt a religious framework and pass them on to others. There is a minority who isn't convinced and questions these popular frameworks of belief. Theists are notorious for not being able to explain how their beliefs can be reached rationally and objectively. This is not the problem of non-believers, it is the problem for believers.

They seem to see the things that their beliefs and religion tells them are real. Like I know Catholics who see Mary and angels. Some Native people have visions of a spirit animal. Even some Baha'is see Abdul Baha'. And Christians that die for a few minutes then come back to life tell of being in heaven. My brother says he felt the "hand" of God keeping him from falling off a cliff.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you as a mortal are in a position to say what God can and cannot do.

No, I do not say what God can and cannot do, Baha'u'llah said that.

Well sorry, God can create the whole universe, which has billions of galaxies, from no existing material, but it can't create a material form to embody to make a personal appearance?

That is suspicious.

God did create a material form in order to make a personal appearance.
It is called a Manifestation of God (also referred to as a Messenger of God).

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

All of the Manifestations of God were God manifested in the flesh.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Who exactly is the prophet and what exactly is the holy book of Hinduism?

I do not know that, but we believe Krishna to be an Avatar and accept the Bhagavad-Gita as a Holy Book.

 

[CG Didymus]

What I have noticed in my 58 years of living is that there are many really good ordinary people who just go about living their lives. They aren't big shots. But we see a lot of influential people through history who took charge, and were evil people. And there were plenty of misguided good and evil ordinary people supporting them. Many CEOs are sociopaths. It is a beneficial defect to have when making hard business decisions that can harm people.

Why did so many bad people need to be created by a loving God, that now wants unity?

And how do you keep those people from taking over? People that want to lead and have power, will find a way to get into a position of power. But they are already in positions of power.

I wonder what the Baha'i plan is for that? Like they say the extremes of wealth and poverty will be done away with. And the rich are going to go along with that plan? And the leaders of each country will disarm, except for a few weapons to maintain order within their country, and follow whatever the world tribunal says?

 

[loverofhumanity]

As you probably know, I only pop in and out of this discussion on rare occasions now, I see there are many taking up the challenge these days. Most certainly this quote is confirmation bias at its best, if not directly from a Baha'i source. Personally, I certainly don't believe some great world teacher will come along. If it takes some great teacher to demonstrate to people what is common sense to the vast majority of mankind, then indeed we're in trouble.

Editted ... I presume you found Fromm's quote here: Erich Fromm, the Sane Society and the Baha’i Faith

I got it from the actual book which I own. Never ever been to that link or any other Baha’i website regarding Fromm.

 

[F1fan]

No, I do not say what God can and cannot do, Baha'u'llah said that.

Which doesn't mean it's true.

Plus when you quote others YOU should cite them and not plagiarize.

And when you do quote others you endorse what they say, yet you offered no evidence.

God did create a material form in order to make a personal appearance.
It is called a Manifestation of God (also referred to as a Messenger of God).

Oh, so now all of a sudden God CAN make a personal appearance. Thank you Ms. Inconsistency.

Of course your reference is out of context completely, thus irrelevant. The point was why doesn't God manifest to prove its existence?

Besides, your Messengers aren't known to be manifestations of an actual God.

This quote is an absurdity.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

All of the Manifestations of God were God manifested in the flesh.

Oh sure they were. No evidence, is there? Just another outrageous claim.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not at all. And if I were that would be easy to do.
Now you might call it a fusion furnace, and I might call it a shining chariot of gold flying across the sky, but we would both agree that there was something there that is blinding us and making us warm.

If I were color blind and you could see colors, you could demonstrate to me that colors exist, even though I cannot perceive them, That is what I am asking you to do.

What I cannot demonstrate to you is something you have never experienced. For example I could not convey to you in a million words what chocolate tastes like if you have never tasted it.

Then again can a person who has a cold smell the most beautiful perfume? If the spiritual senses are sick, one cannot see or know God.

 

[F1fan]

And how do you keep those people from taking over? People that want to lead and have power, will find a way to get into a position of power. But they are already in positions of power.

I think there are many who already are. Authoritarian leaders tend to be sociopaths, against democracy, and greedy for power.

I wonder what the Baha'i plan is for that? Like they say the extremes of wealth and poverty will be done away with. And the rich are going to go along with that plan? And the leaders of each country will disarm, except for a few weapons to maintain order within their country, and follow whatever the world tribunal says?

There's a lot of manipulative leaders and wealthy people out there, and they can easily dupe and manipulate the weak. This is why I mentioned Baha'i should be secular and focus on mental health as a way to create more reasonable global citizens.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which doesn't mean it's true.

Plus when you quote others YOU should cite them and not plagiarize.

And when you do quote others you endorse what they say, yet you offered no evidence.


Oh, so now all of a sudden God CAN make a personal appearance. Thank you Ms. Inconsistency.

Of course your reference is out of context completely, thus irrelevant. The point was why doesn't God manifest to prove its existence?

Besides, your Messengers aren't known to be manifestations of an actual God.

This quote is an absurdity.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49


Oh sure they were. No evidence, is there? Just another outrageous claim.

Just out of personal interest for my own spiritual knowledge. My favourite Sayings of the Buddha is the Dhamapadda. I even know some by heart and cherish it as Holy Scripture.

As a Buddhist, can you tell me is the Dhamapadda the oral Words of Buddha recorded or is it part of some larger text?

 

[F1fan]

What I cannot demonstrate to you is something you have never experienced. For example I could not convey to you in a million words what chocolate tastes like if you have never tasted it.

Chocolate actually exists to be experienced. Now you might have Covid and can't taste it. But you can be aware that cocoa beans actually exist, people cultivate them for chocolate, and it isn't just a 300 year, global conspiracy to fool you about chocolate.

Then again can a person who has a cold smell the most beautiful perfume?

Same situation as above.

If the spiritual senses are sick, one cannot see or know God.

Except no Gods are known to exist. No supernatural phenomenon is known to exist. there are contradictory versions of gods. There is study of the religious brain and why it does what it does. Plus, non-theists ask serious questions that theists can't answer.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know that, but we believe Krishna to be an Avatar and accept the Bhagavad-Gita as a Holy Book.

I know the Baha'i Faith presents itself as the fulfillment of all the major religions. And that Baha'is believe God sent manifestations to people at various times and places to guide them. But, I have come to learn, there were other "avatars" prior to Krishna. He was not the first, but the eighth. And the Bhagavad-Gita is found in the sixth book of the Mahabharata. But there's other Scriptures also. And, as some of us learned, Krishna is from Vaishnavism is not part of the beliefs of other religions in India that all got lumped together and called "Hinduism". I think someone explained that it would be like calling Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith, Abrahamism. And saying that Jesus is their manifestation.

Anyway, that's just a heads up. Don't assume or generalize things with the religion we call "Hinduism". I know most all of us do it. But there's a lot more to it, then what we thought.

 

[ppp]

What I cannot demonstrate to you is something you have never experienced. For example I could not convey to you in a million words what chocolate tastes like if you have never tasted it.

Then again can a person who has a cold smell the most beautiful perfume? If the spiritual senses are sick, one cannot see or know God.

But I am not looking to experience chocolate. I am looking for a demonstration the chocolate exists, and that you can taste it. That color exists and that you can see it.

Once we have established that there is a real phenomenon there that you can perceive at a rate significantly higher than chance, then we start talking about what it can do, and what it can cause.

To jump back to my earlier analogy. Before scientists could accept that the Higgs Boson is what gives fundamental particles mass, they first had to verify that the Higgs Boson was a real thing. Before I can believe that there is a god creating stuff, I first have to have some way to reliable determine that there is anything creating things.

I hope this is laid out clearly.

 

[F1fan]

Just out of personal interest for my own spiritual knowledge. My favourite Sayings of the Buddha is the Dhamapadda. I even know some by heart and cherish it as Holy Scripture.

As a Buddhist, can you tell me is the Dhamapadda the oral Words of Buddha recorded or is it part of some larger text?

The hell if I know. I'm sure it's documented somewhere.

I'm more of a Buddhist for the discipline of mind, not for any sort of student of the history.

 

[CG Didymus]

We accept all that is original and reject all that has been added that is not part of the initial message.

Let's just focus on the NT. What was original in the gospels and what got added in? If it's the actual words and teachings of Jesus, we don't know for sure. If it's the actual things he did, we don't know. We're taking the gospel writers word for it. And do Baha'is trust what the gospel writers said? And then do Baha'is trust what was said in the Epistles? Especially what Paul said?

 

[loverofhumanity]

How so?

To me, the existence of God is as clear as the sun. So obvious that no proof is necessary. But God is not a physical Being so one cannot see Him with the physical senses.

Only when one has developed the spiritual senses can one most certainly see God, but in this age of materialism, when people have caught cold, the most beautiful perfume passes them by without them knowing.

When and if ones spiritual eyes ears and mind are opened, they too will see God in everything and everywhere with absolute certainty. But until these senses are developed one cannot know God. Prayer and meditation and reading the Words of God with a pure unbiased heart, will open ones spiritual eyes.

After reading the Words of Baha’u’llah, my, heart, mind and soul were awakened and now I know there is a God not just believe, but know of an absolute certainty.