Baha'i and Messengers

[loverofhumanity]

Chocolate actually exists to be experienced. Now you might have Covid and can't taste it. But you can be aware that cocoa beans actually exist, people cultivate them for chocolate, and it isn't just a 300 year, global conspiracy to fool you about chocolate.


Same situation as above.


Except no Gods are known to exist. No supernatural phenomenon is known to exist. there are contradictory versions of gods. There is study of the religious brain and why it does what it does. Plus, non-theists ask serious questions that theists can't answer.

No God is known to exist to those who do not see God, but to those who do see God He is more than real. But without the spiritual senses, one cannot know God. And these are developed through prayer, meditation and a pure heart.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I know the Baha'i Faith presents itself as the fulfillment of all the major religions. And that Baha'is believe God sent manifestations to people at various times and places to guide them. But, I have come to learn, there were other "avatars" prior to Krishna. He was not the first, but the eighth. And the Bhagavad-Gita is found in the sixth book of the Mahabharata. But there's other Scriptures also. And, as some of us learned, Krishna is from Vaishnavism is not part of the beliefs of other religions in India that all got lumped together and called "Hinduism". I think someone explained that it would be like calling Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith, Abrahamism. And saying that Jesus is their manifestation.

Anyway, that's just a heads up. Don't assume or generalize things with the religion we call "Hinduism". I know most all of us do it. But there's a lot more to it, then what we thought.

There’s so much we do not know about our past. So really we can’t say anything for certain about it except what recent Manifestations have told us.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think there are many who already are. Authoritarian leaders tend to be sociopaths, against democracy, and greedy for power.


There's a lot of manipulative leaders and wealthy people out there, and they can easily dupe and manipulate the weak. This is why I mentioned Baha'i should be secular and focus on mental health as a way to create more reasonable global citizens.

I think the Jesus way is the best way. He throws Satan into an abyss and destroys all the evil people. You know all the ones that aren't written down in his book of life. Let me check something here... oops, I don't see my name there. Ah, so, better we go with the Baha'i plan instead. Which is secular, they say. They're just there as advisors if needed. I just wonder... in a nice peaceful world where everybody is equal. And nobody exploits others... Who's going to do the dirty work? Like pay people a ton of money to pick lettuce or collect the garbage and clean the sewers? Have the Baha'is thought this through?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Let's just focus on the NT. What was original in the gospels and what got added in? If it's the actual words and teachings of Jesus, we don't know for sure. If it's the actual things he did, we don't know. We're taking the gospel writers word for it. And do Baha'is trust what the gospel writers said? And then do Baha'is trust what was said in the Epistles? Especially what Paul said?

The best we can do is obtain information from the latest Manifestation which we believe is accurate. Baha’u’llah explains much of Bible in the Book of Certitude. I always turn to Baha’u’llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi for Biblical accuracy of meaning and interpretation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think the Jesus way is the best way. He throws Satan into an abyss and destroys all the evil people. You know all the ones that aren't written down in his book of life. Let me check something here... oops, I don't see my name there. Ah, so, better we go with the Baha'i plan instead. Which is secular, they say. They're just there as advisors if needed. I just wonder... in a nice peaceful world where everybody is equal. And nobody exploits others... Who's going to do the dirty work? Like pay people a ton of money to pick lettuce or collect the garbage and clean the sewers? Have the Baha'is thought this through?

Don’t worry CG. I’ll be there in my overalls to clean your backyard and toilets. Lol.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I posted it because you asked for it.
The second passage was Baha'u'llah's Writings.

1. I did not ask for Shoghi's apologistics but his great grandpa's words. Although they can also be made up. You say that there are 'tablets' (sic!) of Bahaollah with your House of Justice which have not been tranlated yet. Any rabbit can come out of the hat.
2. Your post itself says that the said quote is not official. Do you understand the meaning of 'official' and 'unofficial'?

To me, the existence of God is as clear as the sun.

To you but not to the atheists. We want evidence before we accept something.

But without the spiritual senses, one cannot know God.

Is it sense or senselessness? I would not sell my mind to snake-oil sellers.

There’s so much we do not know about our past. So really we can’t say anything for certain about it except what recent Manifestations have told us.

You neither have evidence for your God nor for your manifestation.

I always turn to Baha’u’llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi for Biblical accuracy of meaning and interpretation.

Very funny. You would not go to specialists on the subject but to those who do not even believe what Christians believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course your reference is out of context completely, thus irrelevant. The point was why doesn't God manifest to prove its existence?

The point of the quote is that God did that.

Besides, your Messengers aren't known to be manifestations of an actual God.

Not by everyone.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. I did not ask for Shoghi's apologistics but his great grandpa's words. Although they can also be made up. You say that there are 'tablets' (sic!) of Bahaollah with your House of Justice which have not been tranlated yet. Any rabbit can come out of the hat.
2. Your post itself says that the said quote is not official. Do you understand the meaning of 'official' and 'unofficial'?

It is not an official translation authorized by the UHJ but you asked for something and that is all I could find. Maybe another Baha'i such as @Truthseeker might know about an official translation that addresses the 500,000 years.

 

[F1fan]

The point of the quote is that God did that.

Which is on face value laughable because no God is known to exist.

Not by everyone.

Theists aren't reliable on this issue.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All the guy was saying that they had to use terms that were familiar to the rural Indians to teach them about the Baha'i Faith. If the Baha'is only used Shia Islamic terms, I don't think Christians would have related well to the Baha'i Faith. And there was a problem mentioned in the article with Baha'is using Islamic terms.

It appears it would be best if I do not comment on what I have not taken the time to study.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

All of the Manifestations of God were God manifested in the flesh.

Totally absurd. You mean Bahaollah was God in flesh? Then why do you refuse Jesus as son of God or Rama, Krishna and Buddha (whom you consider as manifestations) also to be God in flesh? What is your problem with them? Trailblazer, you take the prize for the most confused poster of all times on RF.

I do not know that, but we believe Krishna to be an Avatar and accept the Bhagavad-Gita as a Holy Book.

What exactly you mean by 'avatara'? God in flesh as Hindus believe? Why just BhagawadGita? What about Vedas that Hindus believe to be revelations? Upanishads too are parts of Vedas.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is on face value laughable because no God is known to exist.

Not by you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Totally absurd. You mean Bahaollah was God in flesh?

What exactly you mean by 'avatara'? God in flesh as Hindus believe?

No, Baha'is do not believe that Baha'u'llah was God incarnated in the flesh as Christians believe about Jesus or as Hindus believe about avatars.

Baha'is do not believe that God can become flesh.
God manifests His Attributes in the flesh, not His Essence.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth ..........For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55

 

[Aupmanyav]

I got it from the actual book which I own. Never ever been to that link or any other Baha’i website regarding Fromm.

Fromm wrote the book in 1955.

"It will come into existence with the appearance of a new great teacher, just as they have appeared in previous centuries when the time was ripe." (Erich Fromm 1955)

If he supposedly wrote what you have quoted (I have not read his book). then he was not referring to Bahaollah who was long dead by that time and Bahai religion had already come into existence. He was waiting for some other teacher and one more religion. Another thing that surprises me is why the Bahai reference is not there on the cover page of his book that you have with you. Where did it get lost?

And how does it matter if he wrote something according to his views? Religionists and Atheists, all have their various views. It was not a message from any God. He was not even a theist. Wikipedia says "Fromm was reportedly an atheist but described his position as "nontheistic mysticism".

 

[Sundance]

According to the Baha'i their god has made a few messengers. But only a few. At least in comparison to the billions of people who have lived.

Is the Baha'i god incapable of making everyone a messenger? Or simply unwilling?

This is not true. According to the Bahá’í Teachings, there have been (theoretically speaking) countless Messengers and Books that have come and will continue to in the distant future. We just have records of a few. On top of this, other holy Teachers, philosophers, and sacred souls — along with various other Books — have been written about God and how to know Him. I classify this threefold: Revelation, Inspiration, and Individual Experience.


Are you asking whether God can be experienced by every person? If so, I would say so, in many different ways. Though, the truth of it can absolutely be difficult to discern at times. If you’re asking if God can make every single person a Messenger, He coooould, but what fun would that be? It’s comparable to every person being a musician. If every person’s a musician, who’s doing the listening and audio enjoying?

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”

Quote from a post by Trailblazer. That is pitiable. The all-mighty God himself appeared in flesh and did not give sufficient evidence of his God-ness? No walking on water, no raising of the dead, no turning water in to wine, no feeding 5,000 with five loaves of bread and two fish. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. How do you expect other to believe in such an unmagical God? You consider Bahaollah to be God himself in flesh, don't you? Furthermore, it is circular reasoning.

What I cannot demonstrate to you is something you have never experienced.

If you cannot demonstrate anything, then we have no means of knowing whether what you say is truth or a fabrication.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As a Buddhist, can you tell me is the Dhamapadda the oral Words of Buddha recorded or is it part of some larger text?

Buddha is my guru. I understand Buddha completely. In one glance, I can tell if Buddha might have said that or is it a later-time fabrication. Buddha does not want his words to be taken as words of a God. He says test them, analyze them. So whether Dhammapada is written or oral, it does not affect me. Same is true of Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagawat Purana, Ramayana or BhagawadGita. We are free to reject what does not stand scrutiny. We, Hindu and Buddhists, are not from Abrahamic religions where any differing opinion is heresy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Quote from a post by Trailblazer. That is pitiable. The all-mighty God himself appeared in flesh and did not give sufficient evidence of his God-ness? No walking on water, no raising of the dead, no turning water in to wine, not feeding 5,000 with five loaves of bread and two fish. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. How do you expect other to believe in such an unmagical God? You consider Bahaollah to be God himself in flesh, don't you? Furthermore, it is circular reasoning.

As I just told you, Baha'u'llah was not God in the flesh because God cannot become flesh. Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God who manifested the Attributes of God and He was a Messenger of God who brought a message from God, and He was a Servant of God, and He was the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And that Baha'is believe God sent manifestations to people at various times and places to guide them.

Now, with the revelation of Trailblazer, you should say that manifestations are none other than God in flesh. So, if Bahaollah was God in flesh. Then why did the 'Maid of Heaven' appear to him? And why Bahaollah said that he was the chosen of God? And why did he die without completing his mission to lie in a grave in Accra? Could not he bring brotherhood in the world in a flash of an eye? He was all-mighty, was he not? God in the grave! That is mighty funny Bahai belief.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If you’re asking if God can make every single person a Messenger, He coooould, but what fun would that be? It’s comparable to every person being a musician. If every person’s a musician, who’s doing the listening and audio enjoying?

That is precisely what I said. Everybody may not be made a messenger but God should have his authorized spokespersons in every part of the world at all times. Any point of difference, we could go to the local representative of Allah. Not just one in a thousand years. But when did Allah did the correct thing? Scriptures are full of the mistakes that he made, the flood for example. Created man and was satisfied, but see, what humans have done to the world!.

As I just told you, Baha'u'llah was not God in the flesh because God cannot become flesh. Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God who manifested the Attributes of God and He was a Messenger of God who brought a message from God, and He was a Servant of God, and He was the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

Just a few posts ago, you said that messengers are God in flesh. An now, you are changing your statement! Trailblazer, how many times I have told you to be consistent? But you never are.