Baha'i and Messengers

[ppp]

Its ok you dont understand.

I understand. You are making a logical contradiction, and either unable or unwilling to acknowledge that fact.

 

[ppp]

Are you unbiased when you seeking the answers, or are you looking to find faults in scriptures vs what believers actually believe?

So, this needs some unpacking. Your implication is that I must be unbiased in order to see the answers you think I should see. I don't. I can have a conclusion, and as long as I am wiling to reevaluate that conclusion for flaws in reasoning, or to discard it in the favor of contradicting evidence, that is all that is needed. Do you disagree?.

Do you imagine that of all the strongly held positions that I have had over the course of my life that no one has ever convinced me that I was wrong? Of course they have. And how did they do it? By showing me that my reasoning was unsound, or by presenting evidence that disconfirmed my position.

BTW, a belief in God was one of my strongly held positions.

 

[ppp]

What does the Bahai God need to make everyone a messenger? Why should that be a criteria, and if God has requirement to meet "Your Criteria" he is not capable or unwilling?

Please explain.

For an intelligent being with a goal of having me believe that they exist, those are the only two options. Unable or unwilling.

 

[firedragon]

For an intelligent being with a goal of having me believe that they exist, those are the only two options. Unable or unwilling.

Errr. Nope. that's a Childs false dichotomy.

Maybe he knows better. Who are you to know better?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I understand. You are making a logical contradiction, and either unable or unwilling to acknowledge that fact.

I speak only from my understanding of the topic in discussion here, as I always do in RF

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is so unconvincing.
If this god can communicate with one, it can with another.

God chooses Whoever He wishes to be His Representative on earth in each age.

 

[ppp]

That's what God did when Jesus became a man.
Sounds like He really needs to turn up and say hello to every generation.

In exactly the same way that Circe shows up to say hello to every generation -- thru the mythologies of the ancient worlds.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So, this needs some unpacking. Your implication is that I must be unbiased in order to see the answers you think I should see. I don't. I can have a conclusion, and as long as I am wiling to reevaluate that conclusion for flaws in reasoning, or to discard it in the favor of contradicting evidence, that is all that is needed. Do you disagree?.

Do you imagine that of all the strongly held positions that I have had over the course of my life that no one has ever convinced me that I was wrong? Of course they have. And how did they do it? By showing me that my reasoning was unsound, or by presenting evidence that disconfirmed my position.

BTW, a belief in God was one of my strongly held positions.

I don't think you should or should not see anything. What spiritual people experience is different from person to person according to what level of understanding and wisdom they have realised.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So, this needs some unpacking. Your implication is that I must be unbiased in order to see the answers you think I should see. I don't. I can have a conclusion, and as long as I am wiling to reevaluate that conclusion for flaws in reasoning, or to discard it in the favor of contradicting evidence, that is all that is needed. Do you disagree?.

Do you imagine that of all the strongly held positions that I have had over the course of my life that no one has ever convinced me that I was wrong? Of course they have. And how did they do it? By showing me that my reasoning was unsound, or by presenting evidence that disconfirmed my position.

BTW, a belief in God was one of my strongly held positions.

I was never as a religious person. I am still a culture Christian in some sense, but my religion when I had one, was culture and not really faith. I only got faith as a strong skeptic.

 

[ppp]

Unwilling. If God made everyone a Messenger it would contradict that which He has Revealed of Himself through His Choosen Ones.

Whoa! A direct response with no hedging. Be still my heart! Thank you, very much.*

What are a few of the things that it would contradict?

*And if you wonder, there is no sarcasm in this.

 

[Audie]

So, this needs some unpacking. Your implication is that I must be unbiased in order to see the answers you think I should see. I don't. I can have a conclusion, and as long as I am wiling to reevaluate that conclusion for flaws in reasoning, or to discard it in the favor of contradicting evidence, that is all that is needed. Do you disagree?.

Do you imagine that of all the strongly held positions that I have had over the course of my life that no one has ever convinced me that I was wrong? Of course they have. And how did they do it? By showing me that my reasoning was unsound, or by presenting evidence that disconfirmed my position.

BTW, a belief in God was one of my strongly held positions.

The either / or supposition couldvalso use some unpacking.

 

[F1fan]

What is the answers you looking for @F1fan and @Policy

I'm looking for an answer to why many theists refuse to examine why they are so absorbed in religious belief. Theists have an itch they keep scratching, but don't look to understand why they are itchy.

What do you expect a believer to answer you?

Honesty, after they introspect their own nature as a theist.

How much time each day are you using to study the scriptures or speaking with people from different religious faiths to gain a deeper understanding what they believe in?

It's like studying which tool to use to scratch your itch. Theists don't consider why they have this itch at all, and spending time trying to find the most satisfying way to scratch is what is important.

You seem to think everyone is equally itchy. No, not everyone has this problem.

Are you unbiased when you seeking the answers, or are you looking to find faults in scriptures vs what believers actually believe?

I offer theists, like yourself, every opportunity to explain why you believe in religious concepts. Theists are getting more vague, and offer shorter replies. When there is a long reply it tends to repeat dogma, which isn't an answer.

The fundamental dilemma for believers is that they don't examine their own psychological motives and reasons to believe. With so many thousands of options for religious belief, has it occurred to you that there is no actual and final truth, and it is just a matter of dogma that satisfied the personality of the believer, which further is motivated by evolved traits?

I see theists need to apply some religious framework to their lives to feel significant. But I don't see many examine their nature as evolved animals so they understand WHY they are motivated to believe at all. That natural element is crucial to a search for truth. Just finding some dogma that soothes anxiety only masks the problem of the natural and feral mind.

 

[Audie]

God chooses Whoever He wishes to be His Representative on earth in each age.

First its coz the sun would burn me up.
Considering all the " prophets" there have been, all getting " messages" that contradict eachother with no evidence any of them
is not fake, I say the phrasing is off.

"Whoever so wishes will claim to be a messenger"

THAT statement is abundantly evidenced.
Your statement has zero evidence.

Where does the sensible person make his bet?

 

[ppp]

Can we withstand the sun descending to the earth?

Your god is depicted as being omnipotent. So, yes.

 

[F1fan]

You are wrong about that. And I suspect you know it.

Am I wrong about Baha'i not having a way to test whether a Messenger is authentic? The three Baha'i that post here have not explained the objective process that can verify a Messenger is authentic. So perhaps you can prove me wrong by proving this list, and giving us a demonstration of how flawless it is.

It better be damned flawless, after all we are testing whether an ordinary, fallible mortal is actually a Messenger of God, and not just another religious crackpot making a bunch of unverifiable claims.

Show show us. Prove me wrong.

 

[Audie]

I'm looking for an answer to why many theists refuse to examine why they are so absorbed in religious belief. Theists have an itch they keep scratching, but don't look to understand why they are itchy.


Honesty, after they introspect their own nature as a theist.


It's like studying which tool to use to scratch your itch. Theists don't consider why they have this itch at all, and spending time trying to find the most satisfying way to scratch is what is important.

You seem to think everyone is equally itchy. No, not everyone has this problem.


I offer theists, like yourself, every opportunity to explain why you believe in religious concepts. Theists are getting more vague, and offer shorter replies. When there is a long reply it tends to repeat dogma, which isn't an answer.

The fundamental dilemma for believers is that they don't examine their own psychological motives and reasons to believe. With so many thousands of options for religious belief, has it occurred to you that there is no actual and final truth, and it is just a matter of dogma that satisfied the personality of the believer, which further is motivated by evolved traits?

I see theists need to apply some religious framework to their lives to feel significant. But I don't see many examine their nature as evolved animals so they understand WHY they are motivated to believe at all. That natural element is crucial to a search for truth. Just finding some dogma that soothes anxiety only masks the problem of the natural and feral mind.

Well said.
If i may summarize-
We dont all have a God shaped hole.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well said.
If i may summarize-
We dont all have a God shaped hole.

No, some of us overdo evidence and rationality. But both holes are natural.

 

[F1fan]

So what is the limit to the law of non-contradiction? You should know, because you have checked?

If I tell you there is an orange on the table, you can look and verify I'm correct.

If I tell you my version of God exists, how do you verify that? Do you just accept what I say and don't question it?

Do you blindly accept what I say and then go tell other people what I told you? That is how religion works, the next generation mimics the claims of the older generation.

 

[Sheldon]

According to the Baha'i their god has made a few messengers. But only a few. At least in comparison to the billions of people who have lived.

Is the Baha'i god incapable of making everyone a messenger? Or simply unwilling?

Occam's razor infers a much simpler explanation.

 

[Sheldon]

I am in a uncomfortable situation, because I can see where many people going, they are going to suffer and I wish I could save them from suffering. But I can not.
They have to awaken to it them selves.

If it helps I don't believe I anyone can suffer anything after they die. so chill and just live your life. In fact focus all your efforts and avoiding and preventing unnecessary suffering in this life, and it is the only one we have any objective evidence for.