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Baha'i and Messengers

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You really need to bone up on your logical fallacies. What @loverofhumanity said has absolutely NOTHING to do with the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy because he did not say that his beliefs are true because they have not yet been proven false, nor did he say that your beliefs are false because they have not yet been proven true.

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
  1. true
  2. false
  3. unknown between true or false
  4. being unknowable (among the first three).[1]
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

That’s exactly what I tried to explain. That after thorough investigation of many years, I concluded that Baha’u’llah was from God and His knowledge infallible therefore unquestionably correct, factual and true.

Those accusing me of not using logic or proper reasoning fail to recognise that I did so when I investigated independently about Baha’u’llah where I discovered He was sent by God.

So I have investigated Baha’u’llah but my accuser has not investigated to determine whether or not Baha’u’llah has the Station of infallibility or not.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Ditto on what @Truthseeker said to you...
He is my bff and keeps me on the straight and narrow as he is a much better Baha'i than I am, although we have both been Baha'is for about the same number of years and are about the same age and have been married to the same spouse for the same number of years.... go figure!
Duane and I met on the Planet Baha'i forum about nine years ago.
Am I really a better Baha'i than you are are?;)
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Do you believe ( guess) that humbling yourself
to some spirit will benefit you?
My point, dodged so far, is that
such a belief and associated behaviour
is self indulgent.
It's not that it will benefit me. It does benefit me now.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
There is no proof that there is a God and there is no proof that there is no God...
As such neither one of us can claim to have the truth .. All we have are beliefs and opinions.
I do not believe, therefore, I have no obligation to show any. You do, hence you have the obligation. In my case, it is not just belief, but I have evidence that humans came up because of evolution and not because God created them out of dust. I have proof for a long period of the history of universe. What I do not have the proof for is just 10 raised to power -35 sec, the planck moment before inflation. I (I mean scientists) have theories for that too. :)
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I’m hopeless at debating and presentation. I know Baha’u’llah has the truth just not how best to present it.
It doesn't seem like anyone is. I have no good reason to believe that anyone knows or has the capability to know their fantastical claims about their religion.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Those accusing me of not using logic or proper reasoning fail to recognise that I did so when I investigated independently about Baha’u’llah where I discovered He was sent by God.
Those accusers just don't want to face the fact that we Baha'is have done our homework and our beliefs are based upon good evidence and research, because if they admitted that then they would lose their ground. For some atheists is a game they are trying to win, so they think it is also a game for us, but it is no game for us because we already know the truth so we don't need to convince anyone else. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Am I really a better Baha'i than you are are?;)
Ubetcha. For one thing and probably the most important thing, you love God and believe God is loving, but you also pray and read the Writings and take part in Baha'i meetings. What do I do? Take up space on forums. :(
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
That after thorough investigation of many years, I concluded that Baha’u’llah was from God and His knowledge infallible therefore unquestionably correct, factual and true.
There is only one who can certify that Bahaollah was sent by God, and that is God himself. Your testimony has no value.
What do I do? Take up space on forums. :(
There is a reason to everything. I do not know what is your reason.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
The guy that started the Snake Handling sect of Christianity was inspired by a verse that said we will be able to put up serpents and not be harmed. Real or not real?
You are referring to verses at the end of Mark, I think here.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mark originally ended with the tomb being found empty. Later someone added verses that included those above. This has bad smell to it, and I think that Jesus said the way people would know they would be His followers was by the love they showed to each other.
With Mormonism, it being a (fairly normal) sect of Christianity would give it fundamental legitimacy. Joseph Smith was inspired by a level-headed search for which Christian denomination was true, right? OK. Joseph Smith (in my opinion, passes the check of Inspiration from a Revealed Religion).
I have read the book of Mormon, at least in part, and in it Jesus towards the end floats down from the sky and repeats what He said in Matthew. The book of Mormon is also about the lost tribes of Israel coming to America, which was believed by a number of people at that time, but what historian believes that now? Also Joseph Smith taught that God has a physical body and lines on a planet revolving around a star. I find this all unbelievable myself. It appears to me he made this all up. No, this not a religion inspired by God.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I’m hopeless at debating and presentation. I know Baha’u’llah has the truth just not how best to present it.

It doesn't seem like anyone is. I have no good reason to believe that anyone knows or has the capability to know their fantastical claims about their religion.

It is presented just as we are asked to do, no more no less.

If one looks for proofs in this material world they can be found in all nature, but the Word of God is beyond what our senses can perceive.

"....Know thou, moreover, that the Word of God—exalted be His glory—is higher and far superior to that which the senses can perceive, for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcendeth the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any syllable or sound and is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things. It hath never been withheld from the world of being. It is God’s all-pervasive grace, from which all grace doth emanate. It is an entity far removed above all that hath been and shall be."

Then it continues and Baha'u'llah offeres why some will not see this,

"We are loath to enlarge on this subject, inasmuch as the unbelievers have inclined their ears towards Us in order to hear that which might enable them to cavil against God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. And since they are unable to attain to mysteries of knowledge and wisdom from what hath been unraveled by the Source of divine splendor, they rise in protest and burst into clamor. But it is true to say that they object to that which they comprehend, not to the expositions given by the Expounder, nor the truths imparted by the One true God, the Knower of things unseen. Their objections, one and all, turn upon themselves, and I swear by thy life that they are devoid of understanding."

Then it continues with the logic of creation,

"Every thing must needs have an origin and every building a builder. Verily, the Word of God is the Cause which hath preceded the contingent world—a world which is adorned with the splendors of the Ancient of Days, yet is being renewed and regenerated at all times. Immeasurably exalted is the God of Wisdom Who hath raised this sublime structure.

Look at the world and ponder a while upon it. It unveileth the book of its own self before thine eyes and revealeth that which the Pen of thy Lord, the Fashioner, the All-Informed, hath inscribed therein. It will acquaint thee with that which is within it and upon it and will give thee such clear explanations as to make thee independent of every eloquent expounder.

Say: Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name, the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes, and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. Nature is God’s Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world. It is a dispensation of Providence ordained by the Ordainer, the All-Wise. Were anyone to affirm that it is the Will of God as manifested in the world of being, no one should question this assertion. It is endowed with a power whose reality men of learning fail to grasp. Indeed a man of insight can perceive naught therein save the effulgent splendor of Our Name, the Creator. Say: This is an existence which knoweth no decay, and Nature itself is lost in bewilderment before its revelations, its compelling evidences and its effulgent glory which have encompassed the universe...."

This is from the Tablet of Wisdom.

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

A Baha'i has determined that Baha'u'llah is of outstanding character, lived a life in accordance with that good character, thus was 100% truthful and via the proof of the Message that was given.

Regards Tony
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. our beliefs are based upon good evidence and research, ..
You have not produced any in these 48 pages and in no other topic which Bahais started. You are not able to convince any one because of that reason.
You teach on forums.
What qualifications does Trailblazer has to teach us anything? It seems as if you are 'work from home' employees of some organization. You are here just to quote from what is supposed to be Bahaollah's writing translated by his great grandson, as Tony has done above. This is proselytization.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Those accusers just don't want to face the fact that we Baha'is have done our homework and our beliefs are based upon good evidence and research, because if they admitted that then they would lose their ground. For some atheists is a game they are trying to win, so they think it is also a game for us, but it is no game for us because we already know the truth so we don't need to convince anyone else. :)

Beautifully put. Before I was a Baha’i I opposed it for about 3 years because I could not accept a ‘mythical God’ which I believed was a mental illness and superstition. For years I did everything in my power to discredit and prove Baha’is were mentally deranged.

Then one day I picked up the Book of Certitude while I was alone in my flat and began reading it. I read Thief in the Night also. I cannot convey in words what happened except maybe quote these Words from the Iqan. This is exactly what happened that day.


Only when the lamp of search, of earnest striving, of longing desire, of passionate devotion, of fervid love, of rapture, and ecstasy, is kindled within the seeker’s heart, and the breeze of His loving-kindness is wafted upon his soul, will the darkness of error be dispelled, the mists of doubts and misgivings be dissipated, and the lights of knowledge and certitude envelop his being. At that hour will the mystic Herald, bearing the joyful tidings of the Spirit, shine forth from the City of God resplendent as the morn, and, through the trumpet-blast of knowledge, will awaken the heart, the soul, and the spirit from the slumber of negligence. Then will the manifold favours and outpouring grace of the holy and everlasting Spirit confer such new life upon the seeker that he will find himself endowed with a new eye, a new ear, a new heart, and a new mind. He will contemplate the manifest signs of the universe, and will penetrate the hidden mysteries of the soul. Gazing with the eye of God, he will perceive within every atom a door that leadeth him to the stations of absolute certitude.


The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh


At that moment I received a new life, a new eye, a new ear, a new heart and a new mind and can now gaze through the eye of God in absolute certainty.

I often think this precious gift should not have been given to me but someone more worthy, someone better able to communicate to others.
 
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