Baha'i and Messengers

[ppp]

I only said that we should be taken at our word that we have done our due diligence.

Because?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Poor and weak to you, but that does not means it is poor or weak. That is just your subjective opinion of the evidence. I have a different subjective opinion of the evidence.

Ace said: That is actually quite funny........you chastise the other poster on THEIR "subjective opinion", and then turn right around and offer YOUR "subjective opinion", as though IT is somehow BETTER than his!

Where did I chastise anyone? Where did I say anything about BETTER?
I said I have a different subjective opinion of the evidence. That is all I said.

IOW that is like saying MY version of having been abducted by Martians, is NOT the same are YOUR version of how YOU were abducted by Martians. All the while NEITHER of you can actually offer any supporting evidence which WOULD hold up under some rigorous scrutiny.

In your opinion, what WOULD hold up?

 

[Trailblazer]

Because?

Because we are telling the truth, but you don't have to believe us if you don't want to.

 

[ppp]

Because we are telling the truth, but you don't have to believe us if you don't want to.

It has nothing to do with "want". I believe all sorts of things that I do not want to believe. I don't believe all sorts of things that I want to be true. What I "want" isn't even a consideration.

 

[CG Didymus]

How do you understand it and what is the correct context as you see it?

For the virgin birth read Isaiah chapter 7. There is more to the sign then a virgin/young maiden will give birth to a son. Then... who is the sign meant for and was the sign fulfilled? Unless it's okay to pluck one verse from it, verse 14, and make that one verse about Jesus?

Then the Three Woes, same thing.

Rev 8:13 “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”
9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet... 12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet..​

All of chapter 9 should be things that can be tied to Muhammad. Now... we move onto the second "Woe". And we stay there all the way to chapter 11. In between there are the Two Witnesses, which are not during the time of the second Woe, The Bab, but should be during the time of the first Woe, since they are supposed to be Muhammad and Ali. Other Baha'is tried to explain it away by saying that these things aren't in chronological order.

15 And the four angels... were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand...
Rev 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

Abdul Baha' gives his interpretation of the 11th and 12th chapter Revelation, but if you should read from chapter 8-12 for yourself, then read his interpretation.

 

[Trailblazer]

It has nothing to do with "want". I believe all sorts of things that I do not want to believe. I don't believe all sorts of things that I want to be true. What I "want" isn't even a consideration.

When it comes to my religious beliefs I can say the exact same thing.
I never wanted to become a Baha'i. What I "want" isn't even a consideration.

 

[ppp]

When it comes to my religious beliefs I can say the exact same thing.
I never wanted to become a Baha'i. What I "want" isn't even a consideration.

Ok. I never said it was. If you are making a point, it eludes me.

 

[CG Didymus]

Actually we believe in the 7 days of creation as well as evolution.

The ‘days’ spoken of in Genesis, we believe are speaking about ‘Divine Days’. That is, the appearance of Manifestations of God are considered to be a ‘Day of God’. So since Adam, there have been about seven Manifestations of God appear. But we accept that this earth, according to scientists is some 4.5 billion years old. The Bible is not referring to physical creation.

What is intended by the creation of heaven and earth in six days is a spiritual creation and a divine day, (Abdul-Baha)

Why can't it just be a plain old myth. Everybody in those days had creation stories.

Then who are the seven? Let's count backwards... Baha'u'llah, The Bab, Muhammad, Jesus, then who? let's put Buddha next, then Zoroaster, then Moses maybe? then Abraham and Krishna in there somewhere. I'm already at nine, and I haven't included Noah or Adam. And then like I mentioned before, there are seven before Krishna that never get counted. These making things "symbolic" is much too complicated.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. I never said it was. If you are making a point, it eludes me.

I did not say you said it was. I was just saying what I said and that was my point.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you seem helpless in being able to present your case with facts and reason. If you had the truth this wouldn't be a problem.

But you know how it goes. Fact... Baha'u'llah is infallible. Therefore, whatever he says is fact.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many creation myths are there? The main one is in the Bible. But God didn't give the writer of Genesis an honest answer.

You get to decide. I personally see the Bible is a sure spiritual guide. It is not a history book, it is not a scientific disclosure, it is for spiritual growth.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But you know how it goes. Fact... Baha'u'llah is infallible. Therefore, whatever he says is fact.

That can be a conclusion we reach after studying the evidence of that Claim.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It’s always humanity’s choice to make. If humanity prefers one system over another then it’s their choice.

With all the horrible systems in the past, who were the people that chose those ones? With all God's messengers, they couldn't have gotten a fair and just system going?

 

[Truthseeker]

I often think this precious gift should not have been given to me but someone more worthy since I do not even love God, and often I do not even want to be a believer or a Baha'i. Hopefully God understands that this is just part of my emotional condition which has been a lifelong struggle.

I understand, and if I understand I would bet God understands.

 

[CG Didymus]

We accept for example Muhammad and the Quran and Christ and the Gospels and even go to their churches and mosques sometimes to pray and meditate. So we see them as family.

You ever go to a Pentacostal Christian Church? 'Cause they'd probably lay hands on you and try and get those Baha'i beliefs exorcised out of you. In the ones you go to, do they know you're a Baha'i? And to you believe in the things said and practiced in those religious gatherings? And do they go to Baha'i services? And, if they do, what do they think about what is said and practiced there?

 

[Truthseeker]

My phrasing includescpresentvand future.

And its all about self.

It benefits others also. The proof actually of being spiritual is through our deeds. I wish I was doing better with that.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is said to be the height of foolishness for a person to dismiss something they knows nothing about

I'm not sure if you're say I'm the foolish one here, but just in case... The question was for the Baha'is. What is their belief about evolution that they think it is "fact."?

Evolution is a fact of life.

For a religion that believes in a creator, that is a little strange. Since God had to create something that was alive, why not create them in their final form? Do Baha'is believe that God created a one-celled animal and let it slowly evolve into all the different animals we have today?

 

[Sundance]

Probably because those metaphysical and conceptual claims often entail material action, including, but not limited to social censure, discrimination, legal sanctions, an vigilante "justice". It doesn't seem too unreasonable to insist on justification, all things considered. Not even if the insistence is...ahem...rabid.

That first statement is not always true. Plus, merely because individuals have had their various understandings and misunderstandings of religious or philosophical claims doesn’t at all reflect on God Himself. In other words, the use or misuse of religion ought not to be a factor in truth or falsehood of any metaphysical claims and criticisms of the same. The assertion is baseless, and the frequency with which the desire for that requirement (as nonsensical as it is) is utilized is rabid. Absolutely.

 

[Trailblazer]

It benefits others also. The proof actually of being spiritual is through our deeds. I wish I was doing better with that.

From where I am standing it seems like you are doing pretty good with deeds.

 

[CG Didymus]

You are referring to verses at the end of Mark, I think here.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mark originally ended with the tomb being found empty. Later someone added verses that included those above. This has bad smell to it, and I think that Jesus said the way people would know they would be His followers was by the love they showed to each other.

I have read the book of Mormon, at least in part, and in it Jesus towards the end floats down from the sky and repeats what He said in Matthew. The book of Mormon is also about the lost tribes of Israel coming to America, which was believed by a number of people at that time, but what historian believes that now? Also Joseph Smith taught that God has a physical body and lines on a planet revolving around a star. I find this all unbelievable myself. It appears to me he made this all up. No, this not a religion inspired by God.

I agree. I think most of the stories in the Bible could very easily be made up, similar to how Joseph Smith, I believe, made up the Book of Mormon. However, the other important point is, that even though the Book of Mormon is fiction, and maybe the Bible too, they still get people to believe in those fictional stories as if they were true... And by believing in them they can become better more spiritual people.