Baha'i and Messengers

[CG Didymus]

I didn't think about it, but maybe she was talking about what you said instead of what I said when she said those things?

Evolution is always continuing.

I don't know. I liked most of the things she's said, until they were directed at me. Anyway, how do you see it... mutations or like dormant genes or something that one day get activated?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Where did I chastise anyone? Where did I say anything about BETTER?
I said I have a different subjective opinion of the evidence. That is all I said.

Oh, ok, so YOU just claim to have a DIFFERENT guess, that IS what subjective means, isn't it?....a GUESS?
NOT necessarily any BETTER, just DIFFERENT?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Only those who know nothing about evolution think "single cell" would be the start..

And why is THAT? Seems rather logical to me, than to go and suggest that some God MADE EVERYTHING we have today, as is.

The parallel thing is 100% unevidenced fantasy.

I personally have NO IDEA what that even means.

 

[Audie]

And why is THAT? Seems rather logical to me, than to go and suggest that some God MADE EVERYTHING we have today, as is.

.

What " seems " logical very often actually isnt

 

[Audie]

I would have thought fulfillment of the prophecies of the past religions would be an easy thing to show and prove. But it isn't. They are too vague to prove anything.

They prove to be vague?

 

[Audie]

Yeah, yeah to them they are becoming more spiritual. Which means they pray to their God and believes he hears them. And they give money to their congregation. They try and be nice and helpful to others. And why? Because they believe their book is the truth. And it tells them how they should act. And maybe on the inside they are actually feeling like they are becoming closer to their God. The God that is fictional. They certainly can feel more spiritual. Is it real? Not necessarily, but they believe it is. Is it similar to what others feel in the other religions? I think it probably is. Do they all have Scriptural proof that their beliefs are real? I'm sure they believe they do. And when their beliefs contradict the beliefs of some other person in a different religion? Of course, the other person is wrong.

A hairdresser was telling me her husband was pushed ( he reported) down the stairs by a ghost.
I know he is an alcoholic.

She said she believes him, " ...because we are
both very spiritual". NYC, 2008

 

[Audie]

I thought she was talking to me. And she's right, I don't know much about the theory of evolution but wanted to hear more about the Baha'is beliefs about it. The main question being... If God had to create the Earth and the Sun and everything else, what was the point of making all the animals have to evolve... why not just make them in their final form? But then, is it their final form? Will someday some weird animal pop out of another animal and start a new species?

To your last sentence, no.

 

[Sundance]

It doesn't have to be. It only has to be sometimes true.


Every religionist says that about every other religionist's "understanding" of God. The thing is that none of you can demonstrate that your supposed understanding has anything to with God. Until one of you can, you are indistinguishable from one another in any meaningful way.

You cannot all be right, but you can all be wrong.

“Sometimes true” is an entirely different matter from “absolutely true”, yeah? You judge the validity of God’s existence or nonexistence because of the various misdoings of people, making an absolute claim due to “sometimes” occurrences.

You are correct in saying that no person can ascertain the truth of the matter of who or what constitutes God. Actually, the Bahá’í Writings openly admit to this: that no single conception of God, however vast and all-encompassing, can ever hope to present the full truth of who God is. The different religious teachings, varying conceptions about God are not necessarily right or wrong (as you seem to imply that Bahá’ís teach), none of them completely reflect the truth. So, they’re fine for people of different religions to espouse as long as people don’t take them for the absolute truth. Additionally, we believe that different ideas on who or what constitutes God can help us learn about God.

Keep in mind, that you yourself can be wrong, too.


Check this paper on God by the Bahá’í scholar Moojan Momen:

The God of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[Audie]

Are you being purposefully contrary and disagreeable on this? I do know something about evolution, and if a single cell is not the start inform me about it! It's not the point of what I was saying anyway. What's the second sentence about? I was not saying there is parallel evolution of man.

A single cell of any sort is far too complex
to self assemble from a brew of organic molecules to use for parts.

I was agreeing with you about parallel evolution.

 

[F1fan]

But you know how it goes. Fact... Baha'u'llah is infallible. Therefore, whatever he says is fact.

And who says Baha'u'llah is infallible? Baha'u'llah.

And who backs up that Baha'u'llah is infallible? Those who believe that Baha'u'llah is infallible.

What about a test in reality? Ye have little faith.

 

[F1fan]

Correct, but you assume believers don't have any skill or reason, and that is where you are wrong.

Some theists are skilled thinkers, but as PET scans reveal they don't use reason when processing religious beliefs. There is a bias of thought.

 

[F1fan]

In the Tablet of Wisdom by Baha'u'llah, it is my opinion this is what has been offered about objective truth, "But it is true to say that they object to that which they comprehend".

"....We are loath to enlarge on this subject, inasmuch as the unbelievers have inclined their ears towards Us in order to hear that which might enable them to cavil against God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. And since they are unable to attain to mysteries of knowledge and wisdom from what hath been unraveled by the Source of divine splendor, they rise in protest and burst into clamor. But it is true to say that they object to that which they comprehend, not to the expositions given by the Expounder, nor the truths imparted by the One true God, the Knower of things unseen. Their objections, one and all, turn upon themselves, and I swear by thy life that they are devoid of understanding."

Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

It might be your opinion that this text is some sort of objective truth, but reason and facts don't back up your opinion. There are no gods known to exist, so it can't be verified there, thus rejected. You may be biased in your judgment, or have ulterior motives.

Feel free to demonstrate how all parts of this quote is objectively and factually true and then you will be correct.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You ever go to a Pentacostal Christian Church? 'Cause they'd probably lay hands on you and try and get those Baha'i beliefs exorcised out of you. In the ones you go to, do they know you're a Baha'i? And to you believe in the things said and practiced in those religious gatherings? And do they go to Baha'i services? And, if they do, what do they think about what is said and practiced there?

Yes I’ve mixed with them a long time ago and recall they were very friendly. I don’t know if they visit other religions but they believe in the Bible. They prefer spiritual healing and believe in speaking in tongues. They also believe that the Bible is to be understood literally and have women pastors and preachers.

It is always a privilege to mix with fellow religionists. Before covid, we attended a pot luck dinner for nations at the Hope Pentecostal church in my town. Food was great, followed by international music and my wife and I sung ‘love your fellow man’ in Burmese language. It was an awesome experience I sadly miss due to covid.

 

[CG Didymus]

And who says Baha'u'llah is infallible? Baha'u'llah.

And who backs up that Baha'u'llah is infallible? Those who believe that Baha'u'llah is infallible.

What about a test in reality? Ye have little faith.

You can't test unreality, I mean, religious and spiritual things. They are beyond that which is seen. They are the unseen reality. That can't be seen and measured and tested. But it's there. Trust me. I read about it in a book.

 

[F1fan]

Poor and weak to you, but that does not means it is poor or weak. That is just your subjective opinion of the evidence. I have a different subjective opinion of the evidence.

I am one of numerous objective thinkers, and yes, your type of evidence is inadequate as has been explained to you by many folks. You don't like it, but your evidence is still inadequate.

You could not be more wrong. I only believe because of the evidence not because I want to.
It'd be much easier to be an atheist.

I don't see you being very objective in how you understand your own belief.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm not sure if you're say I'm the foolish one here, but just in case... The question was for the Baha'is. What is their belief about evolution that they think it is "fact."?
For a religion that believes in a creator, that is a little strange. Since God had to create something that was alive, why not create them in their final form? Do Baha'is believe that God created a one-celled animal and let it slowly evolve into all the different animals we have today?

The belief is that man was always man and never mutated from another kingdom such as the animal. Abdul-Baha explains this by using the embryo as an example and it’s changes in shape and form, however it is still human.


“For man, from the conception of the embryo until the attainment of maturity, assumes different forms and appearances. His appearance, form, features, and colour change; that is, he passes from form to form and from appearance to appearance. Yet, from the formation of the embryo he belongs to the human species; that is, it is the embryo of a man and not of an animal. But at first this fact is not apparent; only later does it become plain and visible.”

Excerpt from
Some Answered Questions
‘Abdu’l‑Bahá

 

[loverofhumanity]

With all the horrible systems in the past, who were the people that chose those ones? With all God's messengers, they couldn't have gotten a fair and just system going?

I think it has always come down to choice. Had people chosen to follow the law of love one another how many wars would humanity have ever had?

God sees this all and doesn’t intervene but allows us to choose our own path.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many creation myths are there? The main one is in the Bible. But God didn't give the writer of Genesis an honest answer.

No wonder, they would kill anyone that gave them the right answer.

Look at Baha'u'llah, he was ready to disclose all knowledge, offered it to the world, but the Pen was silenced by the reaction to that Message. This is recorded in many of Baha'u'llah's Tablets.

In an age where people pride themselves in knowledge, yet still persecuted a Messenger, what chance did they stand 50,000 plus years ago.

Thus the stories were given in metaphor, much like the Dreamtime stories.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would have thought fulfillment of the prophecies of the past religions would be an easy thing to show and prove. But it isn't. They are too vague to prove anything.

I see when you combine them all and them apply them to a true claimant, it becomes much clearer and Mathematical more likely.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, the evidence, his person, his mission and his writings? What else?

I think when you study thise aspects, the all else is found.

Baha'u'llah has said one of the proofs of the worlds beyond the flesh is that of the dream world and then gives logical rational proof.

How many will even consider this?

Regards Tony