CG Happy Birthday! I wish you long life, good health and prosperity.
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Baha'i and Messengers
- Thread starter ppp
- Start date
CG Happy Birthday! I wish you long life, good health and prosperity.
Also in Luke 24:21 Christ refers to the time of His return.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
‘Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled’ is given by Christ in Revelation as 42 months which is 1260 years which is 1844.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
My point is only that all those things don't start and end at the same time. Six times things are made to be 1260 years. I don't agree with the Baha'i interpretation.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Thanks, but I try not to keep track.
In Luke 21:24 Christ refers to the end of the times of the Gentiles which ended in 1844 when the Jews were permitted to return to the Holy Land. It still equates and confirms the 1260 years of the Muslim calendar which is referred to by Abdul-Baha and by Revelation. Either way it’s proven beyond any doubt that 1844 is being referred to and the Bab.
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ppp
Well-Known Member
Are you sure you meant Luke 24: 21?
“About Jesus of Nazareth,”(R) they replied. “He was a prophet,(S) powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers(T) handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel.(U) And what is more, it is the third day(V) since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us.(W) They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”(X)
“About Jesus of Nazareth,”(R) they replied. “He was a prophet,(S) powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers(T) handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel.(U) And what is more, it is the third day(V) since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us.(W) They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”(X)
Luke 21:24 my wrong.
ppp
Well-Known Member
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
I do not know why you think that has any specificity what so ever. "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." can be spun to mean anything and anytme.
The times of the gentiles fulfilled is referring to when Jerusalem having being overtaken by non Jews, when it will be returned to them which was 1844 Ad or 1260 AH which was mentioned in Revelation ch 11.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Which could be almost any of these.
Sack of Jerusalem (925 BCE), by Pharaoh Shishaq, from biblical narrative
Assyrian siege of Jerusalem (701 BCE) by Sennacherib, king of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
Siege of Jerusalem (597 BCE) by Nebuchadnezzar II of the Neo-Babylonian Empire
Siege of Jerusalem (587 BCE) and destruction of the city and the First Temple by Nebuchadnezzar II
Siege of Jerusalem (162 BCE) by Seleucid general Lysias
Siege of Jerusalem (134 BCE) by Seleucid king Antiochus VII Sidetes
Siege of Jerusalem (67 BCE) by Aristobulus II of Judea against his brother, beginning the Hasmonean Civil War
Siege of Jerusalem (64 BCE) by Hyrcanus II and allied Nabateans against his brother Aristobulus II
Siege of Jerusalem (63 BCE) by Pompey the Great, intervening in the Hasmonean civil war
Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) by Titus, ending the major phase of the First Jewish–Roman War
Sasanian conquest of Jerusalem (614) by Shahrbaraz, part of the Roman-Persian Wars
Siege of Jerusalem (636–637) by Khalid ibn al-Walid; first Muslim conquest of the city
Capture of Jerusalem by Atsiz ibn Uwaq (1073 and 1077), Turcoman mercenary commander
Siege of Jerusalem (1099) by the Crusaders in the First Crusade
Siege of Jerusalem (1187) by Saladin, resulting in the capture of the city by the Ayyubid Muslims
Siege of Jerusalem (1834) by Arab villagers during the 1834 Arab revolt in Palestine
Battle of Jerusalem (1917), the city is captured by British and Commonwealth forces during the Sinai and Palestine campaign of World War I
Im, sorry, but that prophecy is too vague. Moving on.
You’ve missed the point entirely. It’s about when the Jews are finally permitted to return to the Holy Land which was 1844.
The ‘time of the gentiles being ‘fulfilled” refers to the time when the Jews can return to Israel. That began in 1844.
ppp
Well-Known Member
All I can say is that you can claim that that is 'fulfilled' as much as you can any other time.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You mean there were no Jews in the area which constitutes Israel today prior to 1844? That is a silly idea. That is what happens when you believe these false prophecies blindly.
I really am sorry to say, but your response all boils down to "I said so, so there". Ok, as you say then.....tnx
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, it could not apply to any of those other events because Jesus did not return after those events.
Three specific promises were made by Jesus to His disciples. Jesus said that when these three things came to pass, He would return to earth.
The first promise: His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.
The second promise: The “times of the Gentiles” would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine).
The third promise: All mankind would see “the abomination of desolation” foretold by Daniel the Prophet.
For now, let’s look at that second promise: The “times of the Gentiles” would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine).
The second promise of Christ was just as easy to find. It was in the twenty-first chapter of Luke. This promise was also made by Christ in reply to a direct question asked by His disciples. They asked Him:
“… When shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?” (Luke 21:7).
Christ warned them of false prophets in that day, who would bear His name, then He gave them His second promise by which they could be sure of His own return. He said:
“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled … And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:24–27.)
The meaning of the term ‘times of the Gentiles’ was familiar and clear to Scriptural scholars. I learned that it denoted that period of time during which Jerusalem would be held in the power of aliens, non-Jews (or Gentiles), and during which the Jews themselves would be excluded from their homeland.
In plain words, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment. Thus, in the hour of their return, the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled.
I made a careful study of Christ’s second promise. The first part of it said: “They shall be led away captive into all nations.” I found that within forty years of His crucifixion, this part of His promise began its fulfilment.
Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Titus, in AD 70, and the Jews were scattered and exiled. The Jews tried to regain their freedom in AD 132 under Bar Kochba, but they were crushed by the armies of the Roman Emperor Hadrian. This time Jerusalem was devastated even more completely than it had been by Titus. The site of the city was ploughed under and a new city, named in honour of Hadrian, was built upon the ruins.
The Jews were banished. Many of them, exactly as had been foretold by Christ, fell ‘by the edge of the sword’. They fled, scattered and were ‘led away captive into all nations’.
It was permissible for colonists to enter Jerusalem, but it was a crime punishable by death for a Jew to enter.
The Romans were the first aliens (Gentiles) after the time of Christ to tread down the holy city of Jerusalem. The next aliens to seize and hold it captive were the Muslims. They conquered
Jerusalem in AD 637 and upon the foundation of the Temple of Solomon, they
raised the Mosque of Omar. During their period of occupation, Jews were largely excluded from their homeland, the few remaining being proscribed.
The restriction came to end in the year 1844. Remarkable!
The famous Irish scholar and author, George Townshend writes, “… the strict exclusion of the Jews from their own land enforced by the Muslims for some twelve centuries was at last relaxed by the Edict of Toleration and the ‘times of the Gentiles’ were fulfilled.” (God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, 1944 (Introduction by G. Townsend), p. iv)
Townshend further points out that this document, the Edict of Toleration, was issued by the governing authorities in the year 1844.
Worth Smith also mentions this Edict in his Miracle of the Ages. He points out: “In the year of AD 1844 … the (Muslims) under the leadership of Turkey were compelled by the Western Powers, notably England, to grant religious toleration to all (nations) within their borders.”
This included the Holy Land, Palestine. I was able to secure and study copies of the original letters and documents that led to the signing of the so-called Edict of Toleration in 1844. The Turkish Government agreed to permit religious freedom and signed the document that guaranteed that ‘The Sublime Porte (Constantinople) engages to take effectual measures to prevent henceforward’ any further religious intolerance. For the first time in twelve hundred years the Jews were guaranteed the right to return to Israel in freedom and security. The date on this document was 21 March 1844.
Bickersteth in A Practical Guide to the Prophecies, wrote: “In a letter from Tangiers, date 20 June 1844, given in the public journals, speaking of the difficulties besetting the kingdom of Morocco, it sated: ‘It seems that the Moors (Muslims) have always had forebodings of this year. For a long time they have been exhorting each other to beware of 1260 (1844) which according to our reckoning is the present year’.”
These millennial scholars found strong confirmation in the New Testament itself that 1844 was the year intended by Christ for the fulfilment of His second promise concerning the ‘times of the Gentiles’. This confirmation came from the Book of Revelation. In chapter eleven it states:
‘And the Holy City (Jerusalem) shall they tread under foot for forty and two months.’
Thus, for the first time in the Scriptures, the exact duration of the ‘times of the Gentiles’ is given. It will be for forty–two months. In the next verse of Revelation this period of time is given in yet another way. It is said that it will last for ‘1,260 days’.
Bible scholars insisted that the end of this period of forty–two months or 1,260 days was identical with the year 1844. This fascinated me, so I set down their process of reasoning. They arrived at this conclusion by the following deductions:
1. In the study of biblical prophecy, the period of time called a ‘day’ becomes a ‘year’ when calculating the passing of time:
2. This theory was supported by the following prophecies.
a) Numbers 14:34. “Even forty days, each day for a year.”
b) Ezekiel 4:6. “I have appointed thee each day for a year.”
There was general agreement on this formula.
In the compilation The Story of Prophecy by Henry James Forman, I found the following: “… Biblical prophecy students, after a scrutiny of the entire problem of Bible chronology, deduce the following conclusions as virtually axiomatic—namely, that (1) ‘In symbolic prophecy a day is the symbol for a year …’”
On this same subject, F. Hudgings in his Zionism in Prophecy writes: “A solar year, of course, contains a fraction over 365 days, but in computing ‘symbolic time’ as it is set forth in the Scripture, students of prophecy find that the writers simply divided the year into 12 months of 30 days each. In other words, a time or a year in Scriptural symbology refers to 360 solar years—each day representing a year.”
Further study revealed that it was not such an arbitrary choice on the part of these students of Scripture as might at first appear.
Their measuring rod was taken from the first book of the Bible, Genesis. The axiom of 360 days for a year or a time was derived from the following verses:
1. Genesis 7:11—The waters of the flood came on the 17th day of the second month.
2. Genesis 8:4—The waters abated and ceased on the 17th day of the seventh month.
3. Genesis 7:24:—The waters prevailed upon the earth 150 days.
From the 17th day of the second month to the 17th day of the seventh month was exactly five months. These five months took exactly 150 days. Therefore, they were five months of 30 days each. This, the scholars agreed, would make a year of 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days.
Therefore, a day in calculating prophecy was a year of 360 days.
By using this accepted formula of a day for a year, the scholars calculated that the Gentiles would tread the Holy City (Jerusalem) under foot for 1,260 years. Therefore, the prophecy from Revelation could now be read:
“And the Holy City (Jerusalem) shall they tread under foot for 1260 years.”
According to the second promise of Christ, these Gentiles (Romans-Muslims) would tread the city underfoot until the hour of His return which would be 1,260 years by the measurement of prophecy. During all that time, the Jews would be banished from their own land. However, in the hour of Christ’s return, the privilege of going home woul be restored to them, and the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be ended.
An examination of the calendar of the Muslims, who held the Holy City captive, revealed to these millennial scholars an astonishing thing: The year 1,260 of the calendar of the Muslims coincided with the year 1844 of the calendar of the Christians.
The year 1,260 given in Revelation as the time when the days of the ‘Gentiles’ would be ended and the Jews would be permitted to return to their homeland, was the same year as that of 1844 when the Muslim rulers were forced to sign the Edict of Toleration permitting the return of the Jews to Israel.
I began to understand the growing enthusiasm of the Bible scholars of the 1840s. Christ had promised that when the ‘times of the Gentiles’ was fulfilled, He would come back to earth. To these students of Scripture, the second promise of Christ was exactly fulfilled, and the date (1844) established without question.
I was inclined to agree. This made me more eager than ever to test the third and final promise.
From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
Well, if you are making an argument for God simply based upon how many people He has beat up or killed, then I suppose it could definitely be said that there IS a God. Just don't get Him MAD at you
ppp
Well-Known Member
No. Everyone who has predicted this before you for a different time has had their own litany of verses to quote. No different than you. As earnest as you. As certain as you.
Every. Single. One.
This ain't my first rodeo. Or even my 20th.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
^^^
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Then who is the one who fulfilled the prophecies in those verses? Where is he?
Did he fulfill any other prophecies?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Get mad? I think He has been mad at me for at least 20 years.