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Baha'i and Messengers

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Baha’u’llah is an Arabic word meaning Glory of God. This is a very vast topic which would require a thread of its own just to list all the places He has been mentioned in so many Holy Books. It would require an entire volume to mention all the references to Him.
The problem... How many times is Mirza Husayn Ali mentioned in the Holy Books? It doesn't count if he was able to give himself the title of The Glory of God.

Yes dogma clouds religion today I agree because it is made up by people who’s ambition is to maintain control over their followers
Other than the Baha'i Faith and maybe Islam, what religion didn't have a heavy dose of input from people that weren't the "manifestation"? We don't know what the "manifestation" really said. People wrote the stories, and people interpreted the stories. Hopefully, ambition won't get the better of the Baha'i that assume positions of power. Although, some already have and were kicked out of the Baha'i Faith. Oh, and what about the Islamic leaders that took control of Islam. Abdul Baha' says those prophesies the beasts and the dragon in Revelation are about them.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Someone else's objective and rational approach may not be anothers, so it is unlikely total agreement can be found.
Skilled thinkers recognize objective and rational thinking. Those who oppose the conclusions of reason are unreasonable people with a bias. This is why we see theists resist objectivity and reason.

However loverofhumanity made a claim and I am asking him to answer questions about it. Then we can see if what he thinks is objective and rational. If he's right then the rational minds here will back him up, and your belief in God as well. Don't you want that, or do you not trust his thinking?

In fact the approach has been posted in this OP numerous times.
Not that I have seen, and to a degree that is sufficient to support the claim he is making about why he decided a God exists. He insists it is rational. So I want to see it.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is trying to make a story out of it CG.

I do not see that is how it works. Prophecy contains metaphor for a spiritual reality.

  1. 1260 is the Dispensation of Islam, does not matter when it started, it finished in the year 1260, or 1844, which was the year a New Message was given.
  2. Dead in the Streets means the Spirit of Islam was lost from the beginning with the broken covenant when Ali was displaced as the appointed succession. Only the body, the out side practices remained.
  3. The Beast is what the Body without the Spirit became, 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers which lasted to 1260.
It is just all parts of a puzzle.

Regards Tony
And that's what I am questioning. Again, if Muhammad and Ali are the Two Witnesses, and they prophecy for 1260 years, then how can they, or Islam be dead for those same 1260 years? Especially when the Umayyads and Abbasids, the dragon and the beasts, didn't gain power in 621AD and didn't maintain power until 1844. Like I say, if you believe it, fine. I don't. And, unfortunately, it makes me question the validity of the whole religion.

But, like I've said before, I question Christianity too. I think they have also cherry-picked verses and made them into prophecies. And the most important event in Christianity, the resurrection, Baha'is don't even believe. Yet, Christians believe it was foretold.

So, of course, most religions teach about having good morals and to develop virtues. But then most religions wrap their teachings in a bunch of myths about an invisible God. And each religion tells of how they fulfilled things prophesied in the older religions. It's always vague and can be made to mean just about anything. You like Woes being manifestations. I think they were just the bad things that were supposedly on the way.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Skilled thinkers recognize objective and rational thinking. Those who oppose the conclusions of reason are unreasonable people with a bias. This is why we see theists resist objectivity and reason.

However loverofhumanity made a claim and I am asking him to answer questions about it. Then we can see if what he thinks is objective and rational. If he's right then the rational minds here will back him up, and your belief in God as well. Don't you want that, or do you not trust his thinking?


Not that I have seen, and to a degree that is sufficient to support the claim he is making about why he decided a God exists. He insists it is rational. So I want to see it.
You know you or I could read the Baha'i writings and all of a sudden say, "You know this guy's all right. I do believe he came from God." Would that be objective or subjective? We'd be taking his word for it.

We could say, "Wow, that explains everything. God sent several messengers at different times. It's like a progression. Each messenger brings new teachings for the people in that place at that time. It makes so much sense." Then we sign a declaration card saying, "Yes, I believe in God and Baha'u'llah." Then someone asks us, "Why do you believe? Do you have any objective evidence?" And what would we say? "The Baha'i sounds true to us?" Not objective. "We studied other religions and the Baha'i Faith made more sense? We read about Baha'u'llah's life. He gave up everything and became a prisoner. Surely, he was telling the truth. He is a messenger of God." Still, just our opinion.

Has a Baha'i done anything different than a Christian that reads the Bible and says that they believe the Bible is the word of God and Jesus is the Messiah and savior? Would a Baha'i believe any of that as objective evidence for Christianity? I doubt it. And does a Baha'i have anything better?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
So, what ever happened between 621AD and 1844 we can say that such and such lasted 1260 days, which gets changed to 1260 lunar years, when it only last 100 years? Or... for 42 months some person did this and that. Then the 42 months gets converted to 1260 days then 1260 lunar years and those years started in 621AD and ended in 1844, when that person didn't actually do anything in 621AD, but long after that and was long since dead before 1844?

Okay, I see how this prophecy thing works now. Find the date you want to end at, then count backwards to find when to start it. And it doesn't matter when it actually happened. Like the Umayyads and the Abbasids. They didn't gain power in 621AD. And they lost their power hundreds and hundreds of years before The Bab declared in 1844. No reason to think they fulfilled any prophecy about a beast or dragon having power for 1260 days. Unless... you're a Baha'i. If you think it all makes sense, then what can I say, except that I disagree.

But same with the Three Woes from Revelation and the 1290 days and the 1335 days in Daniel.

Oh, the two witnesses prophesied for 1260 days, then they were killed and lay in the street for 3 1/2 days. That's not "chronological"? For Baha'is to be correct they prophesied for the same 1260 years while they were also dead for those same 1260 years. And I might as while add in the beast. He had authority for 42 months, which becomes the same 1260 years? That is some creative interpreting.

Hi CG. The big problem here is that in Some Answered Questions, Abdul-Baha explains the entire chapters 11 and 12 of the Book of Revelation very precisely and easy to understand when studied. Just quoting a bit here and there of course doesn’t make sense because we would need to post about 10 pages and moderators wouldn’t take too kindly to that.

Revelation chapters 11 and 12 are about Islam and the coming of the Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. Reference is made to the 12 Imams and Ali. But it’s not something that one can get a quick summary of on a forum because details will be left out which are necessary for it to all make sense.

But I’ll try to explain some points. It says that Jerusalem will be taken over by the non Jews for 42 months which is 1260 days and in Biblical terms, a day is a year so 1260 years. Now it was the Muslims who captured Jerusalem then crusaders etc until 1844 when the British captured Jerusalem and gave the Jews permission to return to Israel.
Now the year 1844 of the Christian calendar is the year 1260 of the Muslim calendar.

As it was the Muslims who captured Jerusalem, the Bible has calculated the takeover in Islamic years. How did the Bible know Muslims would capture Jerusalem and thus use 1260? It’s the Book of God.

Islamic (AH) to Gregorian (AD) Date Conversion

The Bible has pinpoint accuracy about the appearance of Islam, where it will appear, how many Imams, even the Caliphs and which lands they will govern. With two full chapters in Revelation dedicated to the history of Islam, it’s a real shame that Christians have followed blindly followed the blind instead of discovering Muhammad for themselves.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I noticed you avoided this one question that I'm most interested in, and perhaps others:

If this was an objective and rational process you will be able to submit your line of thought to this group and we will see you are correct. Do you think we will confirm your thinking?

Which was a response to this statement of yours:

What convinced me was the Words of Baha’u’llah.

I responded that the only way you can determine the truth of any matter is to independently investigate for yourself. You cannot know through my mind or see with my eyes or experience what I experienced so it’s impossible for you to know except through your own research. I am not the source of my belief, Baha’u’llah is. I can only point to the Source but that’s all.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I responded that the only way you can determine the truth of any matter is to independently investigate for yourself.
Or rely on experts if the work is very complicated and requires extensive education. But we are talking about ideas here. If you state an idea and insist it is true any of us can use cognitive tools and the rules of thinking like logic and determine if it is true. Those who are skilled at thinking will come to the same conclusions. Sometimes rational people miss details and adjust their conclusions with help of other skilled thinkers. So one person is not always reliable. A community discussion th truth of an idea bring more minds into the process. Individuals can be mistaken in their judgment especially if they have bias and poor skill at reasoning. They wouldn't know any better, so opening discussion in a group helps the person actually confirm truth, or reveals mistakes.

So what if you made errors in your thinking? You were a staunch atheist and decided a God exists after some research. let us see for ourselves if you are onto something.

You cannot know through my mind or see with my eyes or experience what I experienced so it’s impossible for you to know except through your own research.
Objectivity is not about peoples' eyes, that is why others will confirm your thinking. Or was your judgment clouded with personal bias and desires, and objective minds won't acknowledge this as valid?

I am not the source of my belief, Baha’u’llah is. I can only point to the Source but that’s all.
So you were possessed by Baha’u’llah? If not, how do you account for not being responsible for what you judged true? Your mind is the source of your beliefs. That is where your beliefs are judged true.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
The problem... How many times is Mirza Husayn Ali mentioned in the Holy Books? It doesn't count if he was able to give himself the title of The Glory of God.

Other than the Baha'i Faith and maybe Islam, what religion didn't have a heavy dose of input from people that weren't the "manifestation"? We don't know what the "manifestation" really said. People wrote the stories, and people interpreted the stories. Hopefully, ambition won't get the better of the Baha'i that assume positions of power. Although, some already have and were kicked out of the Baha'i Faith. Oh, and what about the Islamic leaders that took control of Islam. Abdul Baha' says those prophesies the beasts and the dragon in Revelation are about them.

All the Messengers of God had a birth name and later when God called them were given a name of God. Jesus might have been Joshua later to become Christ, the Anointed One, Gautuma = Buddha, Muhammad’s was - Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim, the Bab - Ali Muhammad and Baha’u’llah Mira Husain Ali. The further back in history we go the more difficult it is to know for sure.

So until they received the revelation from God they didn’t use the name of God.

But it’s their lives and teachings which proves that they are the Ones mentioned in the scriptures. Also there are references to events which Baha’u’llah could not have arranged such as His exile which is mentioned in the scriptures of no less than 3 religions.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah alone are proof He is from God.

It is said in the Writings:

This is the Day that shall not be followed by night, (Baha’u’llah)

We have now had infallible guidance for over 170 years and that will continue for at least a thousand years. So it is a case of thriving. No violence. No wars.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You know you or I could read the Baha'i writings and all of a sudden say, "You know this guy's all right. I do believe he came from God." Would that be objective or subjective? We'd be taking his word for it.

We could say, "Wow, that explains everything. God sent several messengers at different times. It's like a progression. Each messenger brings new teachings for the people in that place at that time. It makes so much sense." Then we sign a declaration card saying, "Yes, I believe in God and Baha'u'llah." Then someone asks us, "Why do you believe? Do you have any objective evidence?" And what would we say? "The Baha'i sounds true to us?" Not objective. "We studied other religions and the Baha'i Faith made more sense? We read about Baha'u'llah's life. He gave up everything and became a prisoner. Surely, he was telling the truth. He is a messenger of God." Still, just our opinion.
It may explain everything to those who have a limited set of questions. This is why individual assessment is flawed. Lack of skill at objective thought, and poor self-awareness can lead to being convinced any claim is true if it makes the self feel good some how.

Has a Baha'i done anything different than a Christian that reads the Bible and says that they believe the Bible is the word of God and Jesus is the Messiah and savior? Would a Baha'i believe any of that as objective evidence for Christianity? I doubt it. And does a Baha'i have anything better?
Not based on the quotes the believers share. Nothing looks particularly impressive and profound. Much of it is vague.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Two types of human thinkers live on earth.

Both first are just humans.

Every human born by sex as a human is a baby.

All of us. Just babies first.

You think about first. Which are two humans as the first humans ever. We were just sperm and an ovary

So in a thesis human you medically discuss human owned DNA. You called it healer aware medical genesis and why it left the human body. Sacrificed.

You said as one man yet agreed by brothers as men. Humans in science.

Thinking.

You live. You are a human. You are present a human who thinks.

Science. The only status that did not exist.

All other status natural existed including self was by two human parents first.

Not any theist baby man.
Not thinkers for science. Parents human.

With you claiming I now talk on their behalf. Baby man.

O earth existed stone rock.

O earth as stone rock gained an erection. God O the body earth built it by splitting it's body as carpenter tectonic. Volcanic fake penis symbol arose.

Erected volcano penis had sex with space. Heavens conception thesis.

Do you think science of man's human theisms real?

I don't.

I think you own a thinking problem. Called my penis man human egotism versus just being an equal human.

As you never spoke for the first human parents theist scientist. Baby man brother.

You spoke about science. Chosen man's topic yourself. As one man first status self idol of many men brothers.

Your known medical status. Two parents conceived my man baby life.

Life gets attacked by unknown not pre caused status fallout. Nuclear conditions.

Man confesses it is my ownership I caused it.

Does that make you fallout brother human?

No. You lied.

You said I caused it as a man of science.

So if you discuss a wandering star releasing gases. You think. You tell stories. You claim the message about God one ST gas one stone body is real. In space conditions. It releases spirit gas Hot or cold.

Earths God first was hot. Space owned cold gas released. So you said star wandering was a saviour. You. Man baby however said the message. As science.

If you weren't living as a man. Women not the scientist first would live one life and die with no false messages by a man about God. In science.

It saved life he detailed the stone God star by what it released. Cold gases.

If that same star is burning hot it does not save gases. You burn instead.

So it flows burning close to earth cold first.

Man of science talks about it.

Next moment it ignites by earths burning gas heavens. Burns everyone. In other countries. Not in your DNA national country.

Either you got jailed for not giving the whole truth or scientists knowing they are misquoting bible Jesus agreement murdered you by showing that Jesus was not the end of life in attack. By out of space causes.

Take your choice what you believe Bahullah meant as you read and determine what you want to believe only.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Hmmmmm, and you suppose no one is capable of actually doing that THEMSELVES? To proceed with that sort of reasoning, one COULD conclude that ONLY believers are "Godly", while all NONbelievers are "evil Satanists" at heart.
I find myself entertaining some pretty "animalistic tendencies" on occasion, but my own personal common sense keeps me from acting them out......that plus knowing what the consequences would be HAD I acted out upon them.
Just how I happen to see it. Your explanation IS a good one......I simply do not believe it is all what it "says" it is.
These Manifestations are connections to God. God's attributes flow through them. If one has a direct connection with Them in a spiritual sense, they will be raised to a higher spiritual level. This does not mean that all nonbelievers are "evil", just that this connection is missing in a direct sense. All believers don't have this connection through the Manifestations. They can have "evil" characteristics. In fact the amount of connection with God of all is relative. There is no one that is purely evil or purely good.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Or rely on experts if the work is very complicated and requires extensive education. But we are talking about ideas here. If you state an idea and insist it is true any of us can use cognitive tools and the rules of thinking like logic and determine if it is true. Those who are skilled at thinking will come to the same conclusions. Sometimes rational people miss details and adjust their conclusions with help of other skilled thinkers. So one person is not always reliable. A community discussion th truth of an idea bring more minds into the process. Individuals can be mistaken in their judgment especially if they have bias and poor skill at reasoning. They wouldn't know any better, so opening discussion in a group helps the person actually confirm truth, or reveals mistakes.

So what if you made errors in your thinking? You were a staunch atheist and decided a God exists after some research. let us see for ourselves if you are onto something.


Objectivity is not about peoples' eyes, that is why others will confirm your thinking. Or was your judgment clouded with personal bias and desires, and objective minds won't acknowledge this as valid?

So you were possessed by Baha’u’llah? If not, how do you account for not being responsible for what you judged true? Your mind is the source of your beliefs. That is where your beliefs are judged true.

The ancient philosophers used reason but often disagreed with one another so reason however important, alone cannot always guide one to the truth.

But there are other ways of knowing which are above human reasoning and which grant perfect knowledge and certainty and this is gained through the Word of God which is endowed with a power which can teach us that which our human reason and logic cannot, through the Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit which confirms to Baha’is that there is a God and that Baha’u’llah is the One Promised in the Holy Scriptures.

One then reaches a plane called ‘Certitude’ by Baha’u’llah when one is able to ‘see with the eye of God’.

Actually, it’s an amazing process which is described in detail in the Book of Certitude how a true seeker will be led to the truth, sincerity being of the utmost importance.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
But that is the problem. Going back to the Adam and Eve myth God did NOT create them capable of discerning good and evil, nor with the ability to be disciplined, so they naturally failed.

Humans are not born with discipline, it needs to be learned and practiced. And although humans and other animals have innate moral tendencies many humans also are born with mental illness or flaws that make them incapable of making sound judgments. It doesn't take many people in a community to misbehave and cause disruptions. More rules and punishments do not magically work. Humans have developed other approaches, like equality, fairness, more stable social environments so parents can raise stable children, etc. In an ideal society the mentally ill will be taken care of since their problems are natural, or as a theist would describe it, as God intended.

Also natural is that humans are animals and we fight over resources like other animals. We go to war and fight. Or we use our ability to organize societies and do it with legislation, so the wealthier get richer and the poor and middle class struggle. In the USA there is no universal healthcare but we do have an elite wealthy class that accumulate more wealth over time. Is that right, or wrong?

Baha'i talk about global peace, but is there social justice and peace at the core? The poor continue to struggle, is that peace when the wealthy accumulate more wealth?



There is serious problem for theists who claim God is the creator, and is omnipotent, and then insist God isn't accountable for how things are. Even humans are held accountable for things they design and build that end up falling short of their intent. But the all-mighty, all-powerful, timeless God is held to a lower standard?

Adam and Eve were culpable insofar as they were explicitly told what not to do, and what would happen if they chose to go against that. That’s not the fault of God. God is not some kind of tyrant or dictator who bosses us human beings around.

See my civil law analogy to answer your question:


If I’m a lawmaker, and I decide to create a law against murder and issue a punishment, and you willingly choose to break the law, are you not the one at fault? Yes, you are. If you know moral or ethical right, but you choose to do wrong, you are at fault. Not God, not your lawmakers, not your parents or spouse. You.


As for people who are mentally disabled, this is a different matter. Of course, as you’ve said, some such individuals do not have the fully developed capability of discerning right from wrong, so there’s gonna be much more patience exercised there.

Your ending statements are inaccurate. We are speaking to moral and ethical misdoing. Not the ills by which society is plagued. I think, that @loverofhumanity has addressed these things sufficiently in one of his posts.



 

Audie

Veteran Member
You know you or I could read the Baha'i writings and all of a sudden say, "You know this guy's all right. I do believe he came from God." Would that be objective or subjective? We'd be taking his word for it.

We could say, "Wow, that explains everything. God sent several messengers at different times. It's like a progression. Each messenger brings new teachings for the people in that place at that time. It makes so much sense." Then we sign a declaration card saying, "Yes, I believe in God and Baha'u'llah." Then someone asks us, "Why do you believe? Do you have any objective evidence?" And what would we say? "The Baha'i sounds true to us?" Not objective. "We studied other religions and the Baha'i Faith made more sense? We read about Baha'u'llah's life. He gave up everything and became a prisoner. Surely, he was telling the truth. He is a messenger of God." Still, just our opinion.

Has a Baha'i done anything different than a Christian that reads the Bible and says that they believe the Bible is the word of God and Jesus is the Messiah and savior? Would a Baha'i believe any of that as objective evidence for Christianity? I doubt it. And does a Baha'i have anything better?

Surely God would not inspire such wretched prose.
Turgid, grossly overwritten.
A page of his convolutions could condense
to one line.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The ancient philosophers used reason but often disagreed with one another so reason however important, alone cannot always guide one to the truth.

But there are other ways of knowing which are above human reasoning and which grant perfect knowledge and certainty and this is gained through the Word of God which is endowed with a power which can teach us that which our human reason and logic cannot, through the Holy Spirit.

It is the Holy Spirit which confirms to Baha’is that there is a God and that Baha’u’llah is the One Promised in the Holy Scriptures.

One then reaches a plane called ‘Certitude’ by Baha’u’llah when one is able to ‘see with the eye of God’.

Actually, it’s an amazing process which is described in detail in the Book of Certitude how a true seeker will be led to the truth, sincerity being of the utmost importance.

I would be more likely to believe that if
there not quite so many different perfect truths
being touted.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
But I’ll try to explain some points. It says that Jerusalem will be taken over by the non Jews for 42 months which is 1260 days and in Biblical terms, a day is a year so 1260 years. Now it was the Muslims who captured Jerusalem then crusaders etc until 1844 when the British captured Jerusalem and gave the Jews permission to return to Israel.
Now the year 1844 of the Christian calendar is the year 1260 of the Muslim calendar.
Rev 11:2 Gentiles... will trample on the holy city for 42 months.​
When did Jerusalem get trampled by Gentiles? Did Jerusalem get trampled by Gentiles in 621AD? When did Islam take control of Jerusalem? When did the Umayyads gain power? When did the Abbasids? Did they have authority for 42 months or the 1260 years? Sorry, too vague.
Roman Period (70 - 324 CE)
  • 70 CE - Roman Forces Destroy Jerusalem and Demolish Second Temple
  • 135 CE - Jerusalem Rebuilt as a Roman City
Byzantine Period (324-638 CE)
  • 614 CE - Persians Capture Jerusalem
  • 629 CE - Byzantine Christians Recapture Jerusalem from Persians
First Muslim Period (638-1099 CE)
  • 638 CE - Caliph Omar Enters Jerusalem
  • 661-750 CE - Jerusalem Ruled Under Umayyad Dynasty
  • 691 CE - Dome of the Rock Built on Site of Destroyed Jewish Temples
  • 750-974 CE - Jerusalem Ruled Under Abassid Dynasty
Crusader Period (1099-1187 CE)
  • 1099 CE - First Crusaders Capture Jerusalem
Ayyubid Period (1187-1259 CE)
  • 1187 CE - Saladin Captures Jerusalem from Crusaders
  • 1229-1244 CE - Crusaders Briefly Recapture Jerusalem Two Times
Mamluk Period (1250-1516)
  • 1250 - Muslim Caliph Dismantles Walls of Jerusalem; Population Rapidly Declines
Ottoman Period (1516-1917)
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Lack of skill at objective thought, and poor self-awareness can lead to being convinced any claim is true if it makes the self feel good some how.
And belief in a religion and the people they meet... The religious services, the prayer meetings, the music etc. all makes belonging so wonderful. The person "knows" the truth and has a new spiritual family that cares and loves them. Who cares if there are a few unsubstantiated claims? Until later, if the person tries to "share" this wonderful truth that they have found. Up to that point, I would imagine many new believers would be just drinking it all in without questioning it. Then comes the questions, "How do you know this is the truth?" "Ah, because the Bible tells me so?" Or "That's what Baha'u'llah said?

Maybe that's why there's not very many Baha'is that post here. It's too challenging. It may cause cognitive dissonating problems. Much better to just hang out with believers.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Rev 11:2 Gentiles... will trample on the holy city for 42 months.​
When did Jerusalem get trampled by Gentiles? Did Jerusalem get trampled by Gentiles in 621AD? When did Islam take control of Jerusalem? When did the Umayyads gain power? When did the Abbasids? Did they have authority for 42 months or the 1260 years? Sorry, too vague.
Roman Period (70 - 324 CE)
  • 70 CE - Roman Forces Destroy Jerusalem and Demolish Second Temple
  • 135 CE - Jerusalem Rebuilt as a Roman City
Byzantine Period (324-638 CE)
  • 614 CE - Persians Capture Jerusalem
  • 629 CE - Byzantine Christians Recapture Jerusalem from Persians
First Muslim Period (638-1099 CE)
  • 638 CE - Caliph Omar Enters Jerusalem
  • 661-750 CE - Jerusalem Ruled Under Umayyad Dynasty
  • 691 CE - Dome of the Rock Built on Site of Destroyed Jewish Temples
  • 750-974 CE - Jerusalem Ruled Under Abassid Dynasty
Crusader Period (1099-1187 CE)
  • 1099 CE - First Crusaders Capture Jerusalem
Ayyubid Period (1187-1259 CE)
  • 1187 CE - Saladin Captures Jerusalem from Crusaders
  • 1229-1244 CE - Crusaders Briefly Recapture Jerusalem Two Times
Mamluk Period (1250-1516)
  • 1250 - Muslim Caliph Dismantles Walls of Jerusalem; Population Rapidly Declines
Ottoman Period (1516-1917)

It continued until the year 1260 (1844) when the Jews were permitted to return to the Holy Land.

“This state of affairs continued until the year 1260. This 1,260 years is a prophecy concerning the advent of the Báb, the “Gate” leading to Bahá’u’lláh, which took place in the year A.H. 1260. As the period of 1,260 years has been completed, the Holy City of Jerusalem is now beginning to prosper and flourish again.”

‘Abdu’l‑Bahá
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
These Manifestations are connections to God. God's attributes flow through them. If one has a direct connection with Them in a spiritual sense, they will be raised to a higher spiritual level. This does not mean that all nonbelievers are "evil", just that this connection is missing in a direct sense. All believers don't have this connection through the Manifestations. They can have "evil" characteristics. In fact the amount of connection with God of all is relative. There is no one that is purely evil or purely good.
Most all Christians, especially the Trinitarians, have false beliefs. Yet, they feel God flowing through them. They "know" the truth etc. They try and become honest, loving, kind people. But their concept of God is wrong. That's why I don't think it matters what the beliefs are as much as that the teachings, even if false, are believed and followed.

So, like Tony says, by their fruits you shall know them. But is that how we determine a true religion from a false one? I don't think so, because every religion, no matter what they believe, can produce good people. Even something as different in their beliefs like Scientology. They still can change people for the better.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Adam and Eve were culpable insofar as they were explicitly told what not to do, and what would happen if they chose to go against that. That’s not the fault of God. God is not some kind of tyrant or dictator who bosses us human beings around.
I don't suspect that Baha'is believe the story really happened, but if it did, then God put the tree right there in the middle of the garden. The fruit looked and smelled good. Then God allowed or maybe even put the serpent there knowing that the serpent could and will tempt Eve and her to take a bite of the fruit. And she could get Adam to try it too. God knew. But it's just a story.

But if a parent did something similar to their kids, what would we think? They have a camera recording it and hide behind a see-through mirror. They told their kids don't eat the cookies we put right in front of you on the table... you'll spoil your dinner. They leave. A knock on the door. It's their aunt. She says, "Oh my what delicious looking cookies. Why aren't you eating them?" "Mom and Dad said not to. It will spoil our appetite for dinner." "Oh, is that so. Listen, what is it going to hurt to just eat one?' So, the kids eat one. The parents come out and say, "We told you not to eat the cookies. You disobeyed us. You can't be trusted." "But Auntie said it was okay." "Is she your boss? Does she make the rules around here? You kids will have no dinner tonight. And from now on, your aunt is not allowed to see you. You will have to do chores before you get any food. This you brought on yourselves for disobeying."

It was a setup, a trap. God knew just like the parents knew the kids would fail. Why put a tempter and the temptation right in front of them? But if the Bible story is just a fictional story, what was it trying to convey? Obey God at all times and don't give in to temptations? But in the story Adam did fail and caused God to have to curse him and the world. Which then is used to explain why the world is so messed up.
 
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