Baha'i and Messengers

[TransmutingSoul]

The "why" do it is why make peace and unity so dependent on the Baha'i Faith. As if, unless people submit to Baha'i teachings there won't be lasting peace.

Do not all the worlds faiths teach Love and Peace CG? Why have not people submitted to this, as it is what their faith teaches as well?

It is others that are seeing it as Baha'is against other Faiths, whereas a Baha'i sees it is just practicing what all faiths have taught.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Revelation of St. John, chapter 11, where it mentions two witnesses, it refers to Muhammad and Ali.

“The figures 1290 date from the declaration of Muhammad, ten years before His flight to Medina.”

Just these two for now.

Rev 11:2 ...Gentiles... will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days...
7 ...the beast that comes up from the Abyss will... kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city... where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days.
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they... went up to heaven in a cloud...
14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

So, the Gentiles will trample the holy city for 42 months. Then after that God appoints two witnesses that prophesy for 1260 days.
After they have prophesied for 1260 days, they are killed and lie in the public square in the city where their Lord was crucified for three and a half days.

And then all these numbers... All of them, are converted to 1260 lunar years. Every one of them starts in the year of the Hegira and ends in 1844. The trampling, the prophesying, laying in the street, dead... all of them start and stop at the same time.

Next problem. This all happens during the Second Woe. Which is supposed to be about The Bab.

The 1290 days in Daniel...

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.​

The Baha'i interpretation...

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.

Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.​

Hmmm? From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days? So, what does the year Muhammad proclaimed his prophethood have to do with the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up?

Sorry, too vague and too inconsistent to be meaningful to me.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do not all the worlds faiths teach Love and Peace CG? Why have not people submitted to this, as it is what their faith teaches as well?

It is others that are seeing it as Baha'is against other Faiths, whereas a Baha'i sees it is just practicing what all faiths have taught.

Regards Tony

Since Baha'is say that we missed the chance at the most great peace that we must work toward establishing the lesser peace. What part does the Baha'i Faith play in that? Do Baha'is take a leadership role in getting the nations to unite?

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't agree. The Baha'i answer pretends that moral accountability is only attached to the most proximate agent. That is most definitely false.

Oh, I agree that it's simple. Not right.

 

[CG Didymus]

Mmmm…it doesn’t follow logically, CG. If God created human beings with the capacity to know right from wrong, and He tells them – time and time again – “do what’s right, avoid what’s wrong”, I’m not too sure how a person can make this equation stick

[benevolent God + conscience + moral law + punishes evildoing + human free will - human action = God is responsible for evil].

If you you and Policy can logically do so, more power to y’all.

So, evil was never part of God's plan? I don't know? If people have the capacity to do good or bad, to do right or do wrong... where did that capacity come from? And being the smart creator that he is, he knew lots of people would do a lot of evil things. But he made them like that anyway. For what? To keep sending his manifestations until someday, on their own, people will choose to do good instead of evil? Isn't that the plan?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since Baha'is say that we missed the chance at the most great peace that we must work toward establishing the lesser peace. What part does the Baha'i Faith play in that? Do Baha'is take a leadership role in getting the nations to unite?

It plays the part we each choose, in our capacity and willingness to embrace the oneness of all humanity CG.

Time allows us to build upon the foundations of those that gave their life for this God given potential.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that's enough to be starting on with.

That is more than enough, and it is appalling. Lack of belief in God should not be a cause for mistreatment or discrimination. As a believer, I do not think believers are superior to atheists in any way and anti-discrimination laws should apply to atheists, just as they apply to people of different religions, races, and sexual orientations.

Baha'is are discriminated against by some Christians, after they find out what we believe, so before Covid when I used to work in an office I never shared my religion with anyone at work unless they asked, since most people are Christians. Although some of my coworkers were agnostics or atheists, they did not wear that on their sleeves. Some of them knew I was a Baha'i and they always felt free to talk to me about what they disbelieved and why.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just these two for now.

Rev 11:2 ...Gentiles... will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days...
7 ...the beast that comes up from the Abyss will... kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city... where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days.
11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they... went up to heaven in a cloud...
14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

So, the Gentiles will trample the holy city for 42 months. Then after that God appoints two witnesses that prophesy for 1260 days.
After they have prophesied for 1260 days, they are killed and lie in the public square in the city where their Lord was crucified for three and a half days.

And then all these numbers... All of them, are converted to 1260 lunar years. Every one of them starts in the year of the Hegira and ends in 1844. The trampling, the prophesying, laying in the street, dead... all of them start and stop at the same time.

Next problem. This all happens during the Second Woe. Which is supposed to be about The Bab.

The 1290 days in Daniel...

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.​

The Baha'i interpretation...

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.

Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.​

Hmmm? From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days? So, what does the year Muhammad proclaimed his prophethood have to do with the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up?

Sorry, too vague and too inconsistent to be meaningful to me.

The chapter is talking about Muhammad and Islam so the lunar calendar which is the Islamic calendar is used. When Christ is asked when He will return He refers His disciples to Daniel.

So then Abdul-Baha refers to the various numerical formulas Daniel gave to determine the year of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

“In Matthew 24:3 Christ clearly says that what Daniel meant by this prophecy was the date of the advent, and this is the verse: “As He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?” Among the words He uttered in reply were the following: “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).” Thus He referred them to the eighth chapter of the Book of Daniel, implying that whoever reads it should grasp when that time shall be. Consider how clearly the advent of the Báb has been specified in the Torah and the Gospel!”


“Consider how clearly the advent of the Báb has been specified in the Torah and the Gospel!

Let us now establish the date of the advent of Bahá’u’lláh from the Torah. This date is calculated in lunar years from the revelation of the mission and the emigration of Muḥammad. For in the religion of Muḥammad the lunar calendar is used, and all the ordinances regarding religious observances have been expressed in terms of that calendar.”

It’s too lengthy to post but Daniel gives formulas such as 70 weeks and 2300 days when the sanctuary shall be cleansed and Christ when asked about His return etc refers His disciples to Daniel. Then all Abdul-Baha does is logically follow those instructions.


Some Answered Questions
‘Abdu’l‑Bahá

 

[F1fan]

Well that’s the truth. My biggest hurdle in believing in any religion was that followers believed in this invisible God. So although I liked the Baha’is I opposed the Baha’i Faith for about 3 years. I never read any of their literature because I believed my reason and logic were perfectly accurate in disbelieving in a God. I felt sorry for the Baha’is that they believed in this mythical, superstitious God.

Reading the Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah however fully convinced me that God does without a doubt exists.

I'd be interested to read your thinking process and the basis for your judgment. If you were convinced, what convinced you, and why?

As to the book of Urantia, if it does not recognise Baha’u’llah then it is not at all up to date.

Why would that be crucial? The Bible and Quran don't mention the guy. And if these books were based on Messengers who were tapped into an ultimate power of truth then why didn't they mention his as a requirement? What makes it important all of a sudden?

 

[F1fan]

Mmmm…it doesn’t follow logically, CG. If God created human beings with the capacity to know right from wrong, and He tells them – time and time again – “do what’s right, avoid what’s wrong”, I’m not too sure how a person can make this equation stick

But that is the problem. Going back to the Adam and Eve myth God did NOT create them capable of discerning good and evil, nor with the ability to be disciplined, so they naturally failed.

Humans are not born with discipline, it needs to be learned and practiced. And although humans and other animals have innate moral tendencies many humans also are born with mental illness or flaws that make them incapable of making sound judgments. It doesn't take many people in a community to misbehave and cause disruptions. More rules and punishments do not magically work. Humans have developed other approaches, like equality, fairness, more stable social environments so parents can raise stable children, etc. In an ideal society the mentally ill will be taken care of since their problems are natural, or as a theist would describe it, as God intended.

Also natural is that humans are animals and we fight over resources like other animals. We go to war and fight. Or we use our ability to organize societies and do it with legislation, so the wealthier get richer and the poor and middle class struggle. In the USA there is no universal healthcare but we do have an elite wealthy class that accumulate more wealth over time. Is that right, or wrong?

Baha'i talk about global peace, but is there social justice and peace at the core? The poor continue to struggle, is that peace when the wealthy accumulate more wealth?

[benevolent God + conscience + moral law + punishes evildoing + human free will - human action

= God is responsible for evil].

If you you and Policy can logically do so, more power to y’all.

There is serious problem for theists who claim God is the creator, and is omnipotent, and then insist God isn't accountable for how things are. Even humans are held accountable for things they design and build that end up falling short of their intent. But the all-mighty, all-powerful, timeless God is held to a lower standard?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'd be interested to read your thinking process and the basis for your judgment. If you were convinced, what convinced you, and why?


Why would that be crucial? The Bible and Quran don't mention the guy. And if these books were based on Messengers who were tapped into an ultimate power of truth then why didn't they mention his as a requirement? What makes it important all of a sudden?

Firstly, I notice you are a Buddhist. I believe in the Buddha too so always feel very welcome to teach me more as one can never stop learning. My favourite saying of the Buddha is one that I loved so much that I just remembered it so great an impression it left on me. It’s from the Dhamapadda, the Thousands.

“A man may conquer ten times ten thousand in battle, but he is the true conquerer who conquers his own self” How profound is that?

What convinced me was the Words of Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah is mentioned often in both the Bible and Quran and other Holy Scriptures. A Promised One is foretold to appear to renew religion at the time of the end and usher in a golden age.

It is crucial because Baha’u’llah has brought teachings and laws for this age.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Deliver them from their lower animal selves and raise them to their higher spiritual selves.

Hmmmmm, and you suppose no one is capable of actually doing that THEMSELVES? To proceed with that sort of reasoning, one COULD conclude that ONLY believers are "Godly", while all NONbelievers are "evil Satanists" at heart.
I find myself entertaining some pretty "animalistic tendencies" on occasion, but my own personal common sense keeps me from acting them out......that plus knowing what the consequences would be HAD I acted out upon them.
Just how I happen to see it. Your explanation IS a good one......I simply do not believe it is all what it "says" it is.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

where Baha'u'llah is just sitting and waiting for someone to pick him up and run with it for awhile?
Cats come before religion, always. Gotta run, I hear my cat crying.

Absolutely! My cat Jinx, is NOT one to keep waiting, as he IS big enough to really get ones attention if he is so inclined........and THAT is "experience" talking there, heh heh heh.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

The simplest answer is that the guy was wrong.

Sorry but I do not follow your thought on that one. WHY would it necessarily mean the guy was wrong?

And Occam's razor is more along the lines of, Don't multiply entities.

Yessir, as that IS the whole point behind Occams' Razor......do not over-complicate an issue, by coming up with disassociated explanations which THEMSELVES demand an explanation for.

 

[ppp]

Sorry but I do not follow your thought on that one. WHY would it necessarily mean the guy was wrong?

"Necessarily"?

I don't think you are responding to me.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

"Necessarily"?

I don't think you are responding to me.

Why NOT.....as you're the one who made the comment, which I responded to.

 

[ppp]

Why NOT.....as you're the one who made the comment, which I responded to.

Because there was no necessarily in my post. Not even vaguely hinted at. So, I have to wonder why you decided to introduce the complete non-sequitur.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Because there was no necessarily in my post. Not even vaguely hinted at. So, I have to wonder why you decided to introduce the complete non-sequitur.

Sheesh, just let it go.....this isn't government work. Sorry I even responded to you.....I'll keep that in mind.

 

[ppp]

Sheesh, just let it go.....this isn't government work. Sorry I even responded to you.....I'll keep that in mind.

And I'll keep in mind that you blame your errors on you interlocutor. All you had to do was not misrepresent me. Ciao.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry, too vague and too inconsistent to be meaningful to me.

I see the 1260 is not complcated CG. To me it was just prophecy telling us precisely the length of the dispensation of Muhammad.

That in the year 1260 of Islam the Prophecies would unfold.

What the amazing thing is, is that there was a Message given in the year 1844, which is the year 1260 and there were also christains that had got that date correct and Muslims that also got it correct.

Many were then called, yet as it has been at the birth of all Faiths, few are chosen and we only have ourselves to blame for that.

Regards Tony