• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Baha'i and Messengers

F1fan

Veteran Member
I have investigated the Revelation of Baha’u’llah over many years to determine its truth and validity but it was His Words which enabled me to discover the truth.
What does this mean? Your investigations methods might be sloppy and biased. You might have been hungry for some dogma to fill you with meaning. That is fine that you found his Words meaningful, but that doesn't extrapolate to objective truth that applies to everyone, everywhere.

If your investigation was objective, factual, had rigid methodology that others can replicate, then you should present your findings. If you discovered that God exists outside of human imagination you will make millions. Show us.

You are not mentioning anything of substance such as things Baha’u’llah said which we can discuss.
Why should i assume things he said are of substance? I've read many quotes and I haven't been terribly impressed. It's pretty much lofty philosophy with religious content. None of it strikes me as anything an ordinary mortal could invent.

If he said something you think is important and substantive you are free to post it and we can discuss it.

What gets me is why don't you guys talk about the Urantia book. That is a huge book with a lot of info that is from the 20th century. That is the newest revelation and you don't seem to be aware of it.

If we wanted to have a discussion about history or the Quantum theory then both of us would need to be well informed on these topics. I couldn’t just go in all guns blazing with no knowledge of either topic.
You are correct, and i know vey little about that. What I do know is about writing, thinking, psychology of belief, religious debate and claims, etc. So I am well qualified to debate religion.

If we were going to debate about the writing style of Tolkien and how he develops his characters as metaphors of classes of people in the world, and you had extensive study in that, you would have a huge advantage. But if you argued that Hobbits and elves and wizards really exist, well I don't need special knowledge of the creation of those literary characters to know how to demand you present facts and create a coherent argument. I'd have the advantage.

The Words of Baha’u’llah are what transformed me so that’s what we should be focusing on if you want to know what changed me.
Good for you. Maybe you needed to be changed. Feel free to explain what deficiency you had that needed to be changed, and then how Baha'i fixed it. We can examine whether it was you that fixed yourself, but wanted some framework as a guide, or something else.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Mmmmm, it would be highly presumptions of me to be suggesting what the benefits would be for Baha'u'llah to be ursurping any particular position that was not initially intended FOR him. I dunno....Power, Prestige, hard to tell.

How about the simple answer, the one offered by Baha'u'llah, that God had chosen him to deliver a Message.

Regards Tony
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.
Moses and Jesus aren't known to be actual people. Moses is pretty doubtful.

But what about Krishnamurti? Want to read a story about an anti-leader? He is impressive. He was named to be the new leader of a religious organization and what did he do? He disbanded it, because he didn't like the idea of people needing and following gurus instead of their own minds. Why hasn't he gotten more followers? Because it is hard to be looking for meaning and not having the confidence to be your own authority.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Nobody can ever show that, but that does not mean that God does not exist outside the human imagination.
Great. Believers shouldn't claim to know a God exists. Now how do gurus get followers to believe their dogma if they can't claim God does this, or does that, or will give you ....... will give you ...... don't you want to know?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Great. Believers shouldn't claim to know a God exists.
No, believers should not claim to know that God exists as a fact, although they can say they have an inner certitude.
Now how do gurus get followers to believe their dogma if they can't claim God does this, or does that, or will give you ....... will give you ...... don't you want to know?
That might be how they get some followers. After all, most people want to feel that God loves them. ;)
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
How about the simple answer, the one offered by Baha'u'llah, that God had chosen him to deliver a Message.

Regards Tony
Well not to SOUND disrespectful, but that sure IS a "simple answer". Believe the fellows' claim that God had specifically chosen HIM to deliver a message.
Isn't that where all this debate nonsense started with claims such as that?....along with the lack of empirical evidence to support it?
I myself am a believer and user of Occams Razor, where the simplest answer usually IS the most likely answer.....thing is I do not feel they were using the word simple in the same context as I am here.
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
No, believers should not claim to know that God exists as a fact, although they can say they have an inner certitude.

That might be how they get some followers. After all, most people want to feel that God loves them. ;)

Oh PULEEZE, don't get me started on THAT one......that God looooooves them. The all-time murderer of humanity over time, is the one who we should feel without hesitation, looooves us, unconditionally even?
Sorry but I think I'll pass on that one.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
What does this mean? Your investigations methods might be sloppy and biased. You might have been hungry for some dogma to fill you with meaning. That is fine that you found his Words meaningful, but that doesn't extrapolate to objective truth that applies to everyone, everywhere.

If your investigation was objective, factual, had rigid methodology that others can replicate, then you should present your findings. If you discovered that God exists outside of human imagination you will make millions. Show us.


Why should i assume things he said are of substance? I've read many quotes and I haven't been terribly impressed. It's pretty much lofty philosophy with religious content. None of it strikes me as anything an ordinary mortal could invent.

If he said something you think is important and substantive you are free to post it and we can discuss it.

What gets me is why don't you guys talk about the Urantia book. That is a huge book with a lot of info that is from the 20th century. That is the newest revelation and you don't seem to be aware of it.


You are correct, and i know vey little about that. What I do know is about writing, thinking, psychology of belief, religious debate and claims, etc. So I am well qualified to debate religion.

If we were going to debate about the writing style of Tolkien and how he develops his characters as metaphors of classes of people in the world, and you had extensive study in that, you would have a huge advantage. But if you argued that Hobbits and elves and wizards really exist, well I don't need special knowledge of the creation of those literary characters to know how to demand you present facts and create a coherent argument. I'd have the advantage.


Good for you. Maybe you needed to be changed. Feel free to explain what deficiency you had that needed to be changed, and then how Baha'i fixed it. We can examine whether it was you that fixed yourself, but wanted some framework as a guide, or something else.

The reason I haven’t discussed other books like you mentioned is because they played no role in my transformation from a staunch atheist to a firm believer in God and His Prophets.

I was not looking for anything for myself but what would be best for humanity. By accident I came across Baha’u’llah and when I investigated over a number of years , I discovered that to my surprise there was a God. Now I am involved in the regeneration of humanity which involves the elimination of prejudices of race, religion and nationality and the oneness and equality of all people.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Oh PULEEZE, don't get me started on THAT one......that God looooooves them. The all-time murderer of humanity over time, is the one who we should feel without hesitation, looooves us, unconditionally even?
Sorry but I think I'll pass on that one.
Regarding the loving God you are preaching to the choir, although I do not buy the Bible nonsense about what God DID. Why would anyone believe those Bible stories unless they were a Christian?
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
I believe that the angels who were standing there could "see" the spirit of Jesus ascending, because angels unlike ordinary humans, can see spirits, but don't ask me to prove that. :D

No, the spirit of Jesus is not going to come back as it went up, UNattached to a body. I believe it came back the way I explained.

Allow me to try to make that a little more understandable. The body of Jesus was born from Mary, but the spirit of Jesus came down from heaven. Then when the body of Jesus died, the spirit of Jesus ascended back up to heaven. Likewise, Baha'u'llah was born from the womb of His mother but His spirit came down from heaven. That is what the Baha'is mean by the return of the Christ Spirit. It is the return of the Christ Spirit in another human body.

I'm really sorry, but that is just preposterous! You have a more creative imagination when it comes to writing science fiction than a good many of the actual PAID science fiction writers I have read.

Explain to me, if you can, without going off on the deep end again, as to just HOW Jesus would manage to come back in "another human body", and we would actually be able to KNOW it was Jesus and not just another one of those wannabees that show up periodically. (like your Baha'u'llah, just for example)
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
You mean that he asserts that there are. Which is a far, far cry from establishing it.

You seem to be obfuscating the point through this semantics game.


No. It can be a mix of hard and soft.
But it cannot simultaneously be both 'a mix of hard and soft', and 'not a mix of hard and soft'.

Similarly Jesus cannot in the same respect be both God's only begotten son, and not be God's only begotten son.

That is one of the logical absolutes, and if you do not adhere to it then you are not being logical. As I mentioned earlier -- if you want to call your position logical, then you have to work within logical structures.

You are, again, obfuscating. You’re doing nothing but deliberately confusing what’s plain and apparent. I’ll have to ask you to refrain from this.

My point is can the same thing have contradictory characteristics? The (easily demonstrable) answer to that question is yes, especially if it has a twofold nature. Period.

Jesus, according to most Christians, has a twofold nature. His being “the only begotten Son of God” is merely another way of expressing His Divinity. You and I both know this full well. Thus, He is both Divine and human simultaneously.
Now, I’m not one for going into the finer points of Christian doctrine relating to the issue of diophysitism vs Monophysitism vs miaphysitism, but you get my point anyway. Or so I hope.



"withstand the arrows of Fortune and Fate"
What a bucolic bit of poetry to gloss over the reality of actual horrors.

If God places a child in a world where they will be raped and brutalized, God does not get a pass because the child able to "withstand" it.
  1. That god has literally created the situation with intent and knowledge aforethought; and chosen to stand aside and watch.
  2. That god has chosen to create the universe where that specific event takes place.
  3. That god has everything to do with the presence of evil.
  4. That god is evil.


Firstly, I do not “gloss over the reality of horror”. At all. I am saying, however, that even during horrible situations, God gives us the strength and courage to pull through and people who know right and wrong the courage to stand up and say that what’s wrong is wrong and then do something about it. Also, I did not specifically say anything about a child or children. You ought to know better.


As for God intervening in the world, I don’t believe that God does so directly (again, that whole “No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures.” thing that Bahá’u’llah spoke of). I believe that He moves through people, He raises up people, He inspires people to act in the interest of the Good, the True, and The Beautiful.




To continue, your four-statement logic is flawed.



You say,

“That god has literally created the situation with intent and knowledge aforethought; and chosen to stand aside and watch.”


and

“That god has chosen to create the universe where that specific event takes place.”

Both of these statements are partially correct and partially incorrect, given what I’ve established above and in my previous response. God does not create evil. God does not ordain evil. God does creates the Universe and God does establish Law, yes. This notion that God just sits around and does nothing at all is absolutely untrue. From where it derives, I can only imagine.

The fact is that human beings, in (if anything) nothing but rebellion
against God, against His Will, create evil. He does has knowledge as to what’s going on, true, but He does not outwardly compel people to obey His Will, but desires to guide them through their conscience. You know, the conscience? That inner mechanism whereby one can discern right from wrong? According to practically every single monotheistic religion in existence, God gives that to each of us and dwells inside of us through it.

He gives each person the choice for how to live. In this, there are only two: Good and Evil. He cautions people to do good and avoid evil. Some people, who are mindless of this, willingly choose to do evil.


Answer me this truthfully: If God is supposedly evil as you say, why is it taught in different religious texts that He commands people to do good? Why does He say that there will be a punishment for those who do evil? Why would God punish evil if He Himself is evil? In teleological terms, what would happen to good people in front of a supposedly evil God? Do they go to hell? Cease to exist? Tell me.



Now, as for the acts themselves, rape and brutality are atrocious acts caused by what, if you’re truthful? Is it, once again, not human error, the deliberate decision to ignore the directions of conscience? Yes, it is purely human error, nothing inherently to do with anything God does, right? This is not on God, anymore than the committing of crime is on lawmakers who, in deciding on how society is to be governed, make such things illegal. Such an assertion is born from complete idiocy.



Additionally, since you’re speaking to rape and brutality, I’ll let you in on something: for Bahá’ís, rape is counted as being among the most heinous of sins.


I’ll give you a question for your consideration:
To declare that rape is horribly wrong in Bahá’í Law, from what was it motivated, if not the inborn sense that there is a standard of right and wrong to which all people are accountable and from the fundamental conception that God, as benevolent by nature, requires that we are to act likewise?


I’ll offer you this final critique of your response for you consideration:

“Suppose there is a God and that that God is responsible for evil, as you seem to imply. Let’s follow the logic using a hypothetical. What if this evil God disappears? What if He ceases to exists? What if He doesn’t exist at all? Shouldn’t, then, a world without such a God be a heaven on earth, a paradise free from all sorts of evil things, like rape, or theft, or murder, or extortion, or political corruption, the like?”

If you don’t think so, I’m interested to read why not.

 
Last edited:

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
Regarding the loving God you are preaching to the choir, although I do not buy the Bible nonsense about what God DID. Why would anyone believe those Bible stories unless they were a Christian?

Why, pray tell would even a CHRISTIAN believe that nonsense,,,surely they have better sense than to fall for some of the absolute nonsense being promulgated under the Christian "flag".
They read their God murdered some innocent kids for teasing an old man......their God murdered EVERY 1st born in Egypt just to get the Pharaoh to yield to His bidding.....their God went and DROWNED everyone on the planet, I guess just because He could.....and to top it off, this God murdered his OWN kid just so a curse HE placed on humanity could be rescinded........and then has the unmitigated GALL to tell us just how much He LOOOOOOOVES us all.
B.S. I tell ya, nothing but B.S.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm really sorry, but that is just preposterous! You have a more creative imagination when it comes to writing science fiction than a good many of the actual PAID science fiction writers I have read.
Don't look at me, I am not the one who wrote the New Testament. :rolleyes:
Try this one on for size, it was posted to me today by a Christian on another forum:

The Return of the Lord
…16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Some Christians actually believe they will rise from their graves and then go UP to meet Jesus in the air. Less and less I am believing that the Bible is the word of God.
Explain to me, if you can, without going off on the deep end again, as to just HOW Jesus would manage to come back in "another human body", and we would actually be able to KNOW it was Jesus and not just another one of those wannabees that show up periodically. (like your Baha'u'llah, just for example)
I already told you it was not Jesus who came back, it was the spirit of Christ.
How would we know it was the spirit of Christ in another human body? Well, we could read what Baha'u'llah wrote about that, because that is the only way we could know.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why, pray tell would even a CHRISTIAN believe that nonsense,,,surely they have better sense than to fall for some of the absolute nonsense being promulgated under the Christian "flag".
They read their God murdered some innocent kids for teasing an old man......their God murdered EVERY 1st born in Egypt just to get the Pharaoh to yield to His bidding.....their God went and DROWNED everyone on the planet, I guess just because He could.....and to top it off, this God murdered his OWN kid just so a curse HE placed on humanity could be rescinded........and then has the unmitigated GALL to tell us just how much He LOOOOOOOVES us all.
B.S. I tell ya, nothing but B.S.
It is called religious tradition and indoctrination, THAT is why most Christians believe it. They were raised believing that so they did not have to actually THINK about what they were believing... You and I can thank God we were NOT raised to believe that.
About the love, the jury is still out as far as I am concerned.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
You seem to be obfuscating the point through this semantics game.
I'm confused. I thought were we talking about Baha'i epistemology from the paper you linked "BAHA'I EPISTEMOLOGY" by Peter Terry, 2004. And you linked that paper in response to my position that no sound epistemologies have been produced for any of the gods named God. I pointed out that the statement that scriptural authority and inspiration are valid foundations for epistemology is an assertion that lacks demonstration. Asserting is not establishing. That is exactly my point. What point of yours am I obfuscating?


You are, again, obfuscating. You’re doing nothing but deliberately confusing what’s plain and apparent. I’ll have to ask you to refrain from this.

My point is can the same thing have contradictory characteristics? The (easily demonstrable) answer to that question is yes, especially if it has a twofold nature. Period.
No. What I regarding exclusivity said is Logic 101.

1) Law of identity
2) Lay of excluding middle
3 Law of non-contradiction

I was citing and using the third. Just because you are not getting it, does not mean that I am obfuscating.
And I think on that note, I am going to stop here. If you want to pick this up some other time, I am fine with that.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The reason I haven’t discussed other books like you mentioned is because they played no role in my transformation from a staunch atheist to a firm believer in God and His Prophets.
I'm surprised because according to other Baha'i posting they have to use all revelations from Messengers, and that god sends new messengers all the time to update revelation. A lot has changed since the originator and the 20th century is a good time for a new one. The Urantia book was even written by a guy who claimed to be a Messenger. It's a perfect fit. And it is a huge book, over 2000 pages. Lots of detail. I'm just stunned you guys aren't referring to it.

I was not looking for anything for myself but what would be best for humanity.
Humanism.

By accident I came across Baha’u’llah and when I investigated over a number of years , I discovered that to my surprise there was a God.
OK, either something traumatic happened, or you were not a staunch atheist, or you found facts that prove God exists.

Staunch atheists don't find religious texts and claims compelling. Could it be you were just not a theist but felt some emptiness in life, and something in what you read made you feel euphoric and connected?

Now I am involved in the regeneration of humanity which involves the elimination of prejudices of race, religion and nationality and the oneness and equality of all people.
There are a lot of good people in the world, but just enough bad people that ruin life for many. I suspect the planet is heading for some sort of global conflict, perhaps in Ukraine. If not that, then many collapsed societies as authoritarian governments take over. The USA could be one of these failed democracies. The USA is on the bubble. It has historically been a stabilizing force in the world, and now that is waning with its declining democracy.
 

ACEofALLaces

Active Member
Premium Member
Some Christians actually believe they will rise from their graves and then go UP to meet Jesus in the air. Less and less I am believing that the Bible is the word of God.
Yeah I know, I used to read their stuff. Some really crazy imaginations out there, I tell ya.

I already told you it was not Jesus who came back, it was the spirit of Christ.
How would we know it was the spirit of Christ in another human body? Well, we could read what Baha'u'llah wrote about that, because that is the only way we could know. [/QUOTE]
Not more Baha'u'llah crap again. I had it up to "here" what with all the things this character is said to have done, ALL without a shred of REAL evidence to support it, other than he was a nice guy (that everybody wanted dead), and he really really was convinced that he was doing God's work.
Anyway, yeah you said it was the SPIRIT of Jesus (Christ was not his name, it was a title)...which of course brings us BACK to base one again, where Baha'u'llah is just sitting and waiting for someone to pick him up and run with it for awhile.
As usual, no real answers, just talk. Lots and lots of talk. I hear my cat meowing, so I gotta go a feed him...he does NOT like being made to wait, heh heh heh.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
I'm confused. I thought were we talking about Baha'i epistemology from the paper you linked "BAHA'I EPISTEMOLOGY" by Peter Terry, 2004. And you linked that paper in response to my position that no sound epistemologies have been produced for any of the gods named God. I pointed out that the statement that scriptural authority and inspiration are valid foundations for epistemology is an assertion that lacks demonstration. Asserting is not establishing. That is exactly my point. What point of yours am I obfuscating?


You had asked me about what methodology we as Bahá’ís use in determining what we can know about God. To this, I replied:

“According to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, these four things are what we use in discerning what we can gauge about God: reason, sense knowledge, religious tradition, and inspiration. It’s important to balance them out.”

This is simply what we go from: reason, sense knowledge, religious tradition, and inspiration. These are the tools we Bahá’ís use. You are obfuscating in your attempt to make an issue of something unrelated to metaphysics, which was the entire purpose of our back and forth in the first place. Metaphysics, nothing more.



No. What I regarding exclusivity said is Logic 101.

1) Law of identity
2) Lay of excluding middle
3 Law of non-contradiction

I was citing and using the third. Just because you are not getting it, does not mean that I am obfuscating.
And I think on that note, I am going to stop here. If you want to pick this up some other time, I am fine with that.


I get it from your end. I criticized it, and actually, your answer is wrong. A candy can be both hard and soft simultaneously. Hard on the outside, soft on the outside. There are lots of candies like this.

Though, I don’t think you understand from my end. The two-fold nature thing? If something has a composite nature, then the law of non-contradiction can not be sensibly applied.


As I aforementioned, perhaps the concept of the Incarnation in Christianity (or more relevantly, the Bahá’í conception of the “Manifestation of God”) is a paradoxical one. So, no harm no foul. Be well.
 
Top