SlaveofShinri
New Member
I would refer to The Truth as the Truly Intrinsic Reality, the God(s), the Highest Assembly. I believe this is an Ineffable Reality that everyone has received some impression of that they should devotedly follow.
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Baha'i and Messengers
- Thread starter ppp
- Start date
I would refer to The Truth as the Truly Intrinsic Reality, the God(s), the Highest Assembly. I believe this is an Ineffable Reality that everyone has received some impression of that they should devotedly follow.
OK, that gives you more to explain. This means what, exactly?
And be sure to clarify if you are describing something that we can confirm is real, or just repeating some religious ideas.
I would say that evolution gifted us with a reasoning faculty and a moral faculty (conscience), but they are latent at birth, and need to nurtured to develop beyond the instinct state to full potential.
If I understand you correctly, I agree that outdated holy books are not a good source for either moral or intellectual instruction.
ppp
Well-Known Member
"Proofs are of four kinds: first, through sense perception; second, through the reasoning faculty; third, from traditional or scriptural authority; fourth, through the medium of inspiration." -- https://bahai-library.com/pdf/t/terry_abdulbaha_epistemology.pdf - bottom of page 4
Perhaps I missed it, but while he claims that scriptural authority and inspiration are ways of knowing, he doesn't seem to show that is actually the case. He just asserts that it is true and move on.
I am on the first one:
- The Early History of God: Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel
- Cults of the Dead in Ancient Israel and Ugarit (Harvard Semitic Monographs)
- Stories from Ancient Canaan, Second Edition
Which is essentially my position. Though I would say that I can reject it outright. What I cannot assert is that the negation is true. It is like if someone tells me that they were Napoleon in a past life, I could reject their claim outright.
BTW, I can say that a god of a particular description is impossible where that god entails a logical contradiction.
I am sorry, but I am just not with you there. It is not a matter of perspective. Real things cannot have mutually exclusive characteristics. Logically, either such a thing does not exist, or you are talking about two entirely different things. Neither of which may necessarily exist.
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Only so far as you are assigning attributes to the being under discussion. Not only how does one know that such a being exists, but, what sort of behavior should we expect from a being that possesses those attributes.
As for instance, in classical Christianity, God is considered to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent; which in turn raises a logical contradiction. A la, the problem of evil.
- “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
- Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
- Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
- Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” - Epicurus
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The new name verses and the 1260 day verses are very good for Baha'is, but there's lots of verses that aren't very good for Baha'is. And that's true with Jesus and Muhammad. If we look at only the verses that Christians use, then for sure, they must be talking about Jesus. A virgin will give birth to a son. For unto us a child is born. etc. Muhammad? I don't know. Give me a few Bible and NT verses you think point directly to and only to Muhammad.
Anybody can find a few verses that they can make fit their guy. But we can't ignore the verses that point away from their guy.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Even if the Bible prophesied, "His name will be the Glory of God." What good is that if the guy picks that name? Like there's people that call themselves Maitreya, Jesus, Moses, Yahweh, Muhammad and Emmanuel does that make them the person that was prophesied? Sure, a new name, but what else do we know about this person? There are some things that make it sound like it is Jesus.
That IS what (they) say and want you to believe.......then they sneak THIS one in on you when you're not looking....."no one knows when Jesus will come back....not EVEN Jesus, only God knows".....DUH, so what that says, is God is not telling Himself when He is to come back, right?
Does that NOT sound rather stupid to YOU?....as it sure does to me.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Same cherry-picking problem. Of course, Baha'is can find some verses to support their beliefs, but then what do they do with the verses that don't? The disciples did see Jesus again, but that was after the resurrection, which the Baha'is say didn't literally happen. So, for them, Jesus was never seen again, only his spirit. But then they ignore the flesh and bone verse.
This same Jesus has to be ignored or explained away and only the verses that fit Baha'i beliefs are valid.
I think it's rather clear that the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, descended on Pentecost. But it's such a great verse for Baha'is, I have so much to tell you, but you're not ready for it yet. But when he, the Spirit of Truth comes.
So, Jesus was telling them about something that was going to happen in 2000 years? Or in a few days? Of course, it doesn't matter. It's usable. And then the Pentecost event can get explained away.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Just like a person in any religion unlocks their minds and hearts. But that sometimes gets them to lock in their mind to everything that religion tells them. And some sects of some religions get people so locked in they drink the Kool-Aid.
Yes. The metaphor is: the prison door is unlocked before the person enters into freedom.
Of course, plenty of irony.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The Bible, "These laws are forever." I'm sure Islam has a verse that says their laws are forever. But Baha'is say that the "social" laws given by God change with each new messenger. So, we're only stuck with Baha'i laws for a thousand years. But really, God's laws about morality have been very similar and have never been successful at keeping people from fooling around. And the "new" laws from God, the Baha'i laws on morality, are as strict as anybody's.
But what can God and religion do? Say free love, any kind of love, is okay? No. So, it puts God on the spot. He can't say these behaviors are okay, so he has to make a law against it. And since he already tried having them stoned to death, and that didn't work. Then what can he do but just of look away.
I hear that a lot....yet I have not had it presented to me, where Jesus HIMSELF makes that proclamation, besides some vague remarks which could be interpreted to SUGGEST that is what Jesus said.
https://biblehub.com/greek/1473.htm
Yes, just like that one, just for example.....then we have this:
And INDEED, that IS just what Jesus said he would do. And that IS what he DID.....he came back.
That's right.....CAN"T get any plainer than THAT. He told them what he would do, and then it IS what he did!
The PROBLEM is that there are those who feel and believe that Jesus is going to come back AGAIN, and that has YET to happen....and I am not so sure that is even what Jesus even MEANT back then. I cannot forget the "quote" attributed to Jesus, which in effect declares that he will return BEFORE the end of THAT present generation.
Just do not forget that that IS what Jesus said to his disciples, and Jesus DID come back for them, just as he SAID he would.
I do not buy into the Baha'u'llah part of this, for no other reason than I have come to the realization that Baha'u'llah was really nothing more than an opportunist, who would literally jump INTO any situation that leaves enough room for doubt, and declare HIMSELF as being the "one" the scriptures were speaking of.
This "coming back nonsense" being a perfect example of that. The "opportunity" presented itself...and Baha'u'llah took advantage of it and moved right in.
I realize you being a Bahai are opposed to arguing and debating your religion.......try not to see my question as being like that.
I am just curious, in you own mind, how exactly would someone like Jesus OR Baha'u'llah manage to "deliver someone FROM themselves"?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What are Baha'is trying to accomplish? What is their priority? To "prove" the unprovable that God exists, and Baha'u'llah is his messenger? Or is it to promote peace and unity between all the people on the planet? Baha'is say if a religion causes division that it's better to not have religion. Yet, Baha'is consistently say things that are controversial and cause people to argue against them.
Baha'is want peace. They want the world to unite and disarm, the "lesser peace." If it is not a religious thing, but a secular thing, then why not say things that bring people together to support the things needed to bring about the lesser peace? Are we one people? Do we need to make some changes? What are those changes that Baha'i say are needed? A first step towards unity would be not to promote one religion over another, and that includes the Baha'i Faith. Do Baha'is want to include people that don't believe in God or any religion? I would hope so. Then peace and unity can't be dependent on belief in God. Later, after the lesser peace, then Baha'is can start talking about God and the "greater" peace. But now is not the time. Other religions and Atheists are already against you. You're not going to convince them that you are right, and they are wrong.
So, what do Baha'is want? To help move the world towards the lesser peace? Or promote their belief in God and that Baha'u'llah is the latest messenger from that God? Which you already know that you can't prove.
Unity CG, we want peace and unity.
It is up to anyone else that wants peace and unity to consider deeply this advice.
"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."
(“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 286)
So all a Baha'i can offer is those Councils offered by the "Pen of the Most High".
So all the veils have to be removed, either by one's own choice, or via a never ending wave of calamities brought on by our unwillingness to embrace the Councils offered by the "Pen of the Most High".
I offered those Councils do not separate faith, they bind us as one people on one planet.
How will the Athiest embrace the Councils offered by the "Pen of the Most High"?
Maybe they can answer that for you?
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is what I meant.
No, Jesus did not say that He would return, and that is why you cannot produce ANY verses where Jesus said that.
Daniel 7 is not about Jesus because Jesus will never do any of what it says in the following verses, since Jesus is never coming back to earth.
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Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
These verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus has a spiritual body in heaven, not a physical body that is immortal since there is no such thing, except in the imagination of some Christians.
There are no physical bodies in heaven so the body of Jesus does not live in heaven. Jesus is in heaven with a spiritual body, not a physical body.
The physical body of Jesus was not resurrected and changed from a corruptible body into an incorruptible and immortal body because a physical body cannot be changed into a spiritual body that will never die.
Paul said that there are two different kinds of bodies:
--- The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
--- For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of God is in Heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (Heaven), which will last forever. Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised (resurrected) as spiritual bodies that will be suited to go to Heaven and last forever.
1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]
Read full chapter
See Jesus where? Not on earth because the disciples are dead and buried and they are not going to see Jesus anywhere but heaven.
That is exactly what Jesus meant.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 14:19 is Jesus saying that after He ascended to heaven the world would see Him no more.
Jesus never said that when He returned everyone would see Him because Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.
That verse is NOT about out Jesus, it is about Baha'u'llah. He came with clouds does not mean physical clouds, it means that when He came the judgment of people would be clouded, and that is exactly what happened, which is why Christians did not recognize Baha'u'llah.
Every eye shall see Him means that eventually everyone will recognize the Cause of Baha'u'llah.
“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248
Are we going to go through this again? I guess so. But it is a simple copy/paste and I can do it in under a minute.
Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.
One MISINTERPRETED Bible verse that was not even written by Jesus eliminates Baha'u'llah? I don't think so, not for anyone with logical abilities.
The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.
Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of a human being. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.
You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but you will not be the one getting the last laugh. I think it is sad but there is nothing I can do about it. Christians cannot see anything but Jesus and most of them never will.
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By giving us the choice and making that choice known.
The capacity to determine the merit of that choice is within each of us.
So we must judge the Messenger on what they offer, which is their person, their life which becomes the Message they offer and leave for guidance.
Regards Tony
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So this is where justice is required.
Maybe you could offer, as you have now accused Baha'u'llah as an opportunist, what perceived benefit was produced for Baha'u'llah?
Baha'u'llah was born into great wealth and could have had any position he desired in the court of the Shah.
By accepting the Bab, that all vanished.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:
Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
That is not Jesus saying He is coming back, that is John beckoning Jesus to come - Come, Lord Jesus..
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Weren't you the one some time ago that told me that "spirits" can't really be seen by ordinary people...because spirits have no physical attributes, no body, no mass, etc?
Which begs the question of really WHAT were those disciples "looking at" as "it" ascended? According to whomever wrote that scripture you mentioned, apparently in an attempt to cover that obvious conundrum by saying whatever they were "looking at" was actually the SPIRIT of Jesus ascending.
HOW did the disciples even KNOW Jesus was there WITH THEM, and then ASCENDED into the clouds, BEFORE the angels showed up to "tell them" Jesus was actually an invisible, massless, bodyless, SPIRIT?
Something stinks here, doesn't it?