Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[Trailblazer]

The Haifan Bahai community is organized by the appointed arm of UHJ, the appointees being complete sycophants to the UHJ, and who see their job as being to carry out verbatim the slightest whims of the UHJ. The locally elected institutions rarely deviate from the bidding of the UHJ, or make any kind of independent initiative, because they are brainwashed into trusting the appointed arm. The result is the entire global Haifan Bahai community is centrally run, by a UHJ that is unable to see the problems of individual local Bahai communities.

That's true, but what is the solution? The only solution I see is to get Baha'is to recognize this, but that's like asking a Christian to break away from their leaders and their dogma. People tend to follow the crowd rather than making any kind of independent initiative.

 

[Trailblazer]

Most of these boil down to Ruhi books. Cluster Reflection are meta-Ruhi gatherings where Bahais discuss plans to do Ruhi books. Nineteen Day Feasts are basically the same these days, with the long letters that are read from the UHJ about Ruhi/Institute Process. Core activities are a synonym for Ruhi books. "Social and economic development projects" in Haifan Bahai terminology means doing Ruhi books in poor neighborhoods.

That's true, which is one reason I have not been involved in my Baha'i community for decades. I have no interest in Ruhi classes or the other activities that Baha'is engage in. Only very recently, since the passing of my late husband, have I started attending Feasts via Zoom meetings since I felt a need to be connected to the Baha'i community. Because I have no children or other family, and no close friends I see in person, I need to be connected to people. I also wanted to know what the local Baha'is are doing, but I see they are doing what they have always done, which is no surprise, although it is disappointing. It is kind of like I am in a whole different world from those Baha'is, and that all we share in common is our belief in Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe that's true, but the numbers show that it is not working very well.

“Wherefore, O ye beloved of God, offer up thanks that ye have, in the day of the dawning, turned your faces unto the Light of the World and beheld its splendours. Ye have received a share of the light of truth, ye have enjoyed a portion of those blessings that endure forever; and therefore, as a returning of thanks for this bounty, rest ye not for a moment, sit ye not silent, carry to men’s ears the glad tidings of the Kingdom, spread far and wide the Word of God.”
Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, pp. 33-34

I have always considered that we have been warned that a time like this will be part of the tests faced by Baha'i. The problems we face are internal and external, the internal problems are the greatest challenges. The greatest being our ability to embrace the Covernant of Baha'u'llah.

We are also warned that we may have no right to the name Baha'i, if our deeds are not greater than our words. You would be aware of these writings. So we can teach in many ways. Like in our work, we work hard, aim always to be trustworthy, truthful, punctual, reliable and supportive. Show that our life has embraced the higher principles and morals, etc etc.

We are all faced with our own tests and circumstances, we just have to embrace each other and all the struggles we face as individuals. Unity is the challenge.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

the internal problems are the greatest challenges. The greatest being our ability to embrace the Covernant of Baha'u'llah.

Why do you think that is the greatest challenge internally?
Why do think that Baha'is have a problem embracing the Covenant of Baha'u'llah?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why do you think that is the greatest challenge internally?
Why do think that Baha'is have a problem embracing the Covenant of Baha'u'llah?

That Covernant is an agreement. God provides us with the Messengers, the line of Authority and the laws needed for it all to work.

Thus to me, the Covernant is all embracing. I personally see that If, as Baha'i, we could be as Abdul'baha was, then the Faith would have seen a massive entry by troops, on a global scale, and the Most Great Peace would be realised.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

"O My Branches! In this Existent Being the greatest strength and the most perfect power is hidden and concealed; look towards It and gaze in the direction of Its union and not at Its seeming differences. This is the Testament of God that the Branches, Twigs, and Relations must each and every one look to the Greatest Branch.* Reflect upon that which is revealed in My Book, the Aqdas: “When the Ocean of My Presence hath disappeared and the Book of Origin is achieved to the end, turn your faces towards Him whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Pre-Existent Root.” The aim of this blessed verse hath been the Greatest Branch. We have likewise elucidated the Command as a favor from before Us; and I am the Generous, the All-Giving!

Verily, God hath ordained the station of the Greater Branch after the station of the former. Verily, He is the Ordainer, the Wise. We have surely chosen the Greater after the Greatest as a Command from the All-Knowing, the Omniscient!"

Baha'i Scriptures; chapter 6

bahai-library.com

"Greatest Branch" being translated from "Ghusn i Azam", which was Baha'u'llah's title for Abdul Baha, and "Greater Branch" from "Ghusn i Akbar", which was Baha'u'llah's translation for Mirza Muhammad Ali.

See this by a couple of scholars translating Baha'u'llah:

In another tablet revealed in response to that controversy, Bahá’u’lláh rejects Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim to revelation, states that he "is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught," and mentions the extraordinary station of one of His sons.[^59] Later, in His Book of the Covenant, He would state that this high station belongs to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, that Muḥammad-‘Alí is subordinate to him, and that all must turn toward ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.[^60] [59]: Bahá’u’lláh's tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361, and Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 251. [60]: See Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets, 221.
Nader Saiedi, "Logos and Civilization"

Revealing more about the circumstances:

In this Tablet He declares His own station and states that as long as His sons observe the commandments of God, persevere in edifying their souls, testify to what has been revealed by God, believe in 'Him Whom God shall make manifest', do not create divisions in His Cause and do not deviate from His revealed laws, they can be considered as the leaves and branches of His tree of holiness and members of His family. Through them will the light of God be diffused and the signs of His bounty be made manifest.

Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí did not live up to these standards. Apart from his shameful claim of equality with Bahá’u’lláh, he became a source of sedition in the community, inflicted severe injuries upon the Cause of God and, after Bahá’u’lláh's ascension, broke His Covenant and rose up to extinguish the light of His Faith.

In the Tablet of Khalil Bahá’u’lláh alludes to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in terms which immensely exalt Him above His other sons. He refers to Him as One 'from Whose tongue God will cause the signs of His power to stream forth' and as the One Whom 'God hath specially chosen for His Cause'.[^176] [176]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 242.

In another Tablet[^177] revealed at this time when a few believers had been influenced by Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim, Bahá’u’lláh asserts that when Muḥammad-‘Alí was a child of tender years He conferred upon him the power of utterance, so that people might witness His might and glory. He grieves in this Tablet at the state of some of His foolish followers who have thought to recognize a partner with Him in revelation and who have made great mischief in the land. He expresses astonishment at the behaviour of some who have attained His presence and witnessed the outpouring of His Revelation and yet have spread such shameful rumours among the believers. Referring to Muḥammad-‘Alí in this Tablet, He further states: [177]: Ma'idiy-i-Asmani vol. 8, p. 40.

He verily, is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught.[^178] [178]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 251.

In this Tablet Bahá’u’lláh further confirms that all beings are created through a word from Him and that no one can claim equality, likeness or partnership with Him. He and He alone is the possessor of the [pg 171] Most Great Infallibility which is the prerogative of every Manifestation of God.

Concerning the three believers in Qazvín who were misled by Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim, Bahá’u’lláh invited Ḥájí Ḥasan and his brother to come to Adrianople. Here they attained His presence and fully recognized their folly.
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Child of the Covenant"

This is from the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha:

Consider, how foolish are the people! They that have been in His (Bahá'u'lláh's) Presence and beheld His Countenance, have nevertheless noised abroad such idle talk, until, exalted be His explicit words, He said: -- "Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught." Reflect! What stress He layeth upon one moment's deviation: that is, were he to incline a hair's breadth to the right or to the left, his deviation would be clearly established and his utter nothingness made manifest. And now ye are witnessing how the wrath of God hath from all sides afflicted him and how day by day he is speeding towards destruction. Ere long will ye behold him and his associates, outwardly and inwardly, condemned to utter ruin.

What deviation can be greater than breaking the Covenant of God! What deviation can be greater than interpolating and falsifying the words and verses of the Sacred Text, even as testified and declared by Mirza Badi'u'llah! What deviation can be greater than calumniating the Center of the Covenant himself! What deviation can be more glaring than spreading broadcast false and foolish reports touching the Temple of God's Testament! What deviation can be more grievous than decreeing the death of the Center of the Covenant, supported by the holy verse: -- "He that layeth a claim ere the passing of a thousand years...," whilst he (Muhammad Ali) without shame in the days of the Blessed Beauty had advanced such a claim as this and been confuted by Him in the aforementioned manner, the text of his claim being still extant in his own handwriting and bearing his own seal.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 6)

I provided the two scholars above translating the Tablet of Baha'u'llah, so you know that Abdu'l-Baha was not making this up for his own purposes.

Mirza Muhammad Ali had broken the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and thus had invalidated his succession to Abdu'l-Baha. What ruin such a person would have wreaked upon the Baha'i Cause!

 

[Truthseeker]

"The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counselors to the number of Bahá" --Kitab i Aqdas, Paragraph 30

In the context that is referring to Local Houses of Justices. Shoghi Effendi decided to for the time being call then Local Spiritual Assemblies.

 

[Trailblazer]

See this by a couple of scholars translating Baha'u'llah:

In another tablet revealed in response to that controversy, Bahá’u’lláh rejects Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim to revelation, states that he "is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught," and mentions the extraordinary station of one of His sons.[^59] Later, in His Book of the Covenant, He would state that this high station belongs to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, that Muḥammad-‘Alí is subordinate to him, and that all must turn toward ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.[^60] [59]: Bahá’u’lláh's tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361, and Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 251. [60]: See Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets, 221.
Nader Saiedi, "Logos and Civilization"

Revealing more about the circumstances:

In this Tablet He declares His own station and states that as long as His sons observe the commandments of God, persevere in edifying their souls, testify to what has been revealed by God, believe in 'Him Whom God shall make manifest', do not create divisions in His Cause and do not deviate from His revealed laws, they can be considered as the leaves and branches of His tree of holiness and members of His family. Through them will the light of God be diffused and the signs of His bounty be made manifest.

Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí did not live up to these standards. Apart from his shameful claim of equality with Bahá’u’lláh, he became a source of sedition in the community, inflicted severe injuries upon the Cause of God and, after Bahá’u’lláh's ascension, broke His Covenant and rose up to extinguish the light of His Faith.

In the Tablet of Khalil Bahá’u’lláh alludes to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in terms which immensely exalt Him above His other sons. He refers to Him as One 'from Whose tongue God will cause the signs of His power to stream forth' and as the One Whom 'God hath specially chosen for His Cause'.[^176] [176]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 242.

In another Tablet[^177] revealed at this time when a few believers had been influenced by Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim, Bahá’u’lláh asserts that when Muḥammad-‘Alí was a child of tender years He conferred upon him the power of utterance, so that people might witness His might and glory. He grieves in this Tablet at the state of some of His foolish followers who have thought to recognize a partner with Him in revelation and who have made great mischief in the land. He expresses astonishment at the behaviour of some who have attained His presence and witnessed the outpouring of His Revelation and yet have spread such shameful rumours among the believers. Referring to Muḥammad-‘Alí in this Tablet, He further states: [177]: Ma'idiy-i-Asmani vol. 8, p. 40.

He verily, is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught.[^178] [178]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 251.

In this Tablet Bahá’u’lláh further confirms that all beings are created through a word from Him and that no one can claim equality, likeness or partnership with Him. He and He alone is the possessor of the [pg 171] Most Great Infallibility which is the prerogative of every Manifestation of God.

Concerning the three believers in Qazvín who were misled by Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim, Bahá’u’lláh invited Ḥájí Ḥasan and his brother to come to Adrianople. Here they attained His presence and fully recognized their folly.
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Child of the Covenant"

This is from the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha:

Consider, how foolish are the people! They that have been in His (Bahá'u'lláh's) Presence and beheld His Countenance, have nevertheless noised abroad such idle talk, until, exalted be His explicit words, He said: -- "Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught." Reflect! What stress He layeth upon one moment's deviation: that is, were he to incline a hair's breadth to the right or to the left, his deviation would be clearly established and his utter nothingness made manifest. And now ye are witnessing how the wrath of God hath from all sides afflicted him and how day by day he is speeding towards destruction. Ere long will ye behold him and his associates, outwardly and inwardly, condemned to utter ruin.

What deviation can be greater than breaking the Covenant of God! What deviation can be greater than interpolating and falsifying the words and verses of the Sacred Text, even as testified and declared by Mirza Badi'u'llah! What deviation can be greater than calumniating the Center of the Covenant himself! What deviation can be more glaring than spreading broadcast false and foolish reports touching the Temple of God's Testament! What deviation can be more grievous than decreeing the death of the Center of the Covenant, supported by the holy verse: -- "He that layeth a claim ere the passing of a thousand years...," whilst he (Muhammad Ali) without shame in the days of the Blessed Beauty had advanced such a claim as this and been confuted by Him in the aforementioned manner, the text of his claim being still extant in his own handwriting and bearing his own seal.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 6)

I provided the two scholars above translating the Tablet of Baha'u'llah, so you know that Abdu'l-Baha was not making this up for his own purposes.

Mirza Muhammad Ali had broken the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and thus had invalidated his succession to Abdu'l-Baha. What ruin such a person would have wreaked upon the Baha'i Cause!

I knew that you would know.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the context that is referring to Local Houses of Justices. Shoghi Effendi decided to for the time being call then Local Spiritual Assemblies.

What a plethora of knowledge you are. I wish I knew half as much about the Faith as you know.

 

[trident765]

That's true, but what is the solution? The only solution I see is to get Baha'is to recognize this, but that's like asking a Christian to break away from their leaders and their dogma. People tend to follow the crowd rather than making any kind of independent initiative.

It's difficult because the overwhelming majority of the Baha'is are so set in their ways that it will be nearly impossible to get them to break from the mainstream Baha'i Faith. So I think a breakaway Baha'i movement would have to be organized online initially.

Boomers Baha'is will never give up on the UHJ. Gen X, Millenials, Gen Z who grew up Baha'i have almost all already left the Faith. So the pool of Baha'is who might be open to breaking away from the mainstream is very small.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's difficult because the overwhelming majority of the Baha'is are so set in their ways that it will be nearly impossible to get them to break from the mainstream Baha'i Faith. So I think a breakaway Baha'i movement would have to be organized online initially.

Boomers Baha'is will never give up on the UHJ. Gen X, Millenials, Gen Z who grew up Baha'i have almost all already left the Faith. So the pool of Baha'is who might be open to breaking away from the mainstream is very small.

Personally, I don't think a breakaway Baha'i movement is the answer since that defeats the whole purpose of unity. Also, any such movement would never succeed, since most Baha'is are with the UHJ, and as you said the pool of Baha'is who might be open to breaking away from the mainstream is very small.

I think the Baha'i groups should get together and pool their ideas and knowledge. What will prevent that from happening is the diehard Baha'is who are with the UHJ who simply reject all Baha'is who are not with the UHJ, and of course the Baha'i groups who are not with the UHJ will reject the Baha'is who are with the UHJ.

Do you see the problem?

 

[Trailblazer]

See this by a couple of scholars translating Baha'u'llah:

In another tablet revealed in response to that controversy, Bahá’u’lláh rejects Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim to revelation, states that he "is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught," and mentions the extraordinary station of one of His sons.[^59] Later, in His Book of the Covenant, He would state that this high station belongs to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, that Muḥammad-‘Alí is subordinate to him, and that all must turn toward ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.[^60] [59]: Bahá’u’lláh's tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361, and Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 251. [60]: See Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets, 221.
Nader Saiedi, "Logos and Civilization"

Revealing more about the circumstances:

In this Tablet He declares His own station and states that as long as His sons observe the commandments of God, persevere in edifying their souls, testify to what has been revealed by God, believe in 'Him Whom God shall make manifest', do not create divisions in His Cause and do not deviate from His revealed laws, they can be considered as the leaves and branches of His tree of holiness and members of His family. Through them will the light of God be diffused and the signs of His bounty be made manifest.

Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí did not live up to these standards. Apart from his shameful claim of equality with Bahá’u’lláh, he became a source of sedition in the community, inflicted severe injuries upon the Cause of God and, after Bahá’u’lláh's ascension, broke His Covenant and rose up to extinguish the light of His Faith.

In the Tablet of Khalil Bahá’u’lláh alludes to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in terms which immensely exalt Him above His other sons. He refers to Him as One 'from Whose tongue God will cause the signs of His power to stream forth' and as the One Whom 'God hath specially chosen for His Cause'.[^176] [176]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 242.

In another Tablet[^177] revealed at this time when a few believers had been influenced by Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim, Bahá’u’lláh asserts that when Muḥammad-‘Alí was a child of tender years He conferred upon him the power of utterance, so that people might witness His might and glory. He grieves in this Tablet at the state of some of His foolish followers who have thought to recognize a partner with Him in revelation and who have made great mischief in the land. He expresses astonishment at the behaviour of some who have attained His presence and witnessed the outpouring of His Revelation and yet have spread such shameful rumours among the believers. Referring to Muḥammad-‘Alí in this Tablet, He further states: [177]: Ma'idiy-i-Asmani vol. 8, p. 40.

He verily, is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught.[^178] [178]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 251.

In this Tablet Bahá’u’lláh further confirms that all beings are created through a word from Him and that no one can claim equality, likeness or partnership with Him. He and He alone is the possessor of the [pg 171] Most Great Infallibility which is the prerogative of every Manifestation of God.

Concerning the three believers in Qazvín who were misled by Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim, Bahá’u’lláh invited Ḥájí Ḥasan and his brother to come to Adrianople. Here they attained His presence and fully recognized their folly.
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Child of the Covenant"

This is from the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha:

Consider, how foolish are the people! They that have been in His (Bahá'u'lláh's) Presence and beheld His Countenance, have nevertheless noised abroad such idle talk, until, exalted be His explicit words, He said: -- "Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught." Reflect! What stress He layeth upon one moment's deviation: that is, were he to incline a hair's breadth to the right or to the left, his deviation would be clearly established and his utter nothingness made manifest. And now ye are witnessing how the wrath of God hath from all sides afflicted him and how day by day he is speeding towards destruction. Ere long will ye behold him and his associates, outwardly and inwardly, condemned to utter ruin.

What deviation can be greater than breaking the Covenant of God! What deviation can be greater than interpolating and falsifying the words and verses of the Sacred Text, even as testified and declared by Mirza Badi'u'llah! What deviation can be greater than calumniating the Center of the Covenant himself! What deviation can be more glaring than spreading broadcast false and foolish reports touching the Temple of God's Testament! What deviation can be more grievous than decreeing the death of the Center of the Covenant, supported by the holy verse: -- "He that layeth a claim ere the passing of a thousand years...," whilst he (Muhammad Ali) without shame in the days of the Blessed Beauty had advanced such a claim as this and been confuted by Him in the aforementioned manner, the text of his claim being still extant in his own handwriting and bearing his own seal.
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament, p. 6)

I provided the two scholars above translating the Tablet of Baha'u'llah, so you know that Abdu'l-Baha was not making this up for his own purposes.

Mirza Muhammad Ali had broken the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and thus had invalidated his succession to Abdu'l-Baha. What ruin such a person would have wreaked upon the Baha'i Cause!

Can you explain this in a nutshell? Are you saying that there was a question about whether Baha'u'llah's other son Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí would be the successor to Abdu'l-Baha, instead of Shoghi Effendi?

 

[Truthseeker]

Can you explain this in a nutshell? Are you saying that there was a question about whether Baha'u'llah's other son Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí would be the successor to Abdu'l-Baha, instead of Shoghi Effendi?

It was understood that way, yes. But Mirza Muhammad Ali was impatient, and he broke the Covenant in the meantime.

Surviving 'Abdu'l-Bahá by almost twenty years, he who had so audaciously affirmed to His face that he had no assurance he might outlive Him, lived long enough to witness the utter bankruptcy of his cause, leading meanwhile a wretched existence within the walls of a Mansion that had once housed a crowd of his supporters; was denied by the civil authorities, as a result of the crisis he had after 'Abdu'l-Bahá's passing foolishly precipitated, the official custody of his Father's Tomb; was compelled, a few years later, to vacate that same Mansion, which, through his flagrant neglect, had fallen into a dilapidated condition; was stricken with paralysis which crippled half his body; lay bedridden in pain for months before he died; and was buried according to Muslim rites, in the immediate vicinity of a local Muslim shrine, his grave remaining until the present day devoid of even a tombstone -- a pitiful reminder of the hollowness of the claims he had advanced, of the depths of infamy to which he had sunk, and of the severity of the retribution his acts had so richly merited."
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha'u'llah, p. 252)

 

[trident765]

See this by a couple of scholars translating Baha'u'llah:

In another tablet revealed in response to that controversy, Bahá’u’lláh rejects Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim to revelation, states that he "is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught," and mentions the extraordinary station of one of His sons.[^59] Later, in His Book of the Covenant, He would state that this high station belongs to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, that Muḥammad-‘Alí is subordinate to him, and that all must turn toward ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.[^60] [59]: Bahá’u’lláh's tablet can be found in Ishraq Khavari, Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 1:56-68. See also Ma'idiy-i-Asmani 4:361, and Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, 251. [60]: See Bahá’u’lláh, Tablets, 221.
Nader Saiedi, "Logos and Civilization"

Revealing more about the circumstances:

In this Tablet He declares His own station and states that as long as His sons observe the commandments of God, persevere in edifying their souls, testify to what has been revealed by God, believe in 'Him Whom God shall make manifest', do not create divisions in His Cause and do not deviate from His revealed laws, they can be considered as the leaves and branches of His tree of holiness and members of His family. Through them will the light of God be diffused and the signs of His bounty be made manifest.

Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí did not live up to these standards. Apart from his shameful claim of equality with Bahá’u’lláh, he became a source of sedition in the community, inflicted severe injuries upon the Cause of God and, after Bahá’u’lláh's ascension, broke His Covenant and rose up to extinguish the light of His Faith.

In the Tablet of Khalil Bahá’u’lláh alludes to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in terms which immensely exalt Him above His other sons. He refers to Him as One 'from Whose tongue God will cause the signs of His power to stream forth' and as the One Whom 'God hath specially chosen for His Cause'.[^176] [176]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 242.

In another Tablet[^177] revealed at this time when a few believers had been influenced by Mírzá Muḥammad-‘Alí's claim, Bahá’u’lláh asserts that when Muḥammad-‘Alí was a child of tender years He conferred upon him the power of utterance, so that people might witness His might and glory. He grieves in this Tablet at the state of some of His foolish followers who have thought to recognize a partner with Him in revelation and who have made great mischief in the land. He expresses astonishment at the behaviour of some who have attained His presence and witnessed the outpouring of His Revelation and yet have spread such shameful rumours among the believers. Referring to Muḥammad-‘Alí in this Tablet, He further states: [177]: Ma'idiy-i-Asmani vol. 8, p. 40.

He verily, is but one of My servants... Should he for a moment pass out from under the shadow of the Cause, he surely shall be brought to naught.[^178] [178]: Bahá’u’lláh, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 251.

Muhammad Ali revealed verses when he was 6 years old, under the shadow of Baha'u'llah. Here is more info on this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/FreeSpeechBahai/comments/132aiz4

In this Tablet Bahá’u’lláh further confirms that all beings are created through a word from Him and that no one can claim equality, likeness or partnership with Him. He and He alone is the possessor of the [pg 171] Most Great Infallibility which is the prerogative of every Manifestation of God.

I agree with this, and it would also apply to Abdul Baha.

Mirza Muhammad Ali had broken the Covenant of Baha'u'llah and thus had invalidated his succession to Abdu'l-Baha. What ruin such a person would have wreaked upon the Baha'i Cause!

Baha'u'llah places no such condition on the succession. One could also say Abdul Baha joined partners with God by creating the UHJ and attributing infallibility to it, thus invalidating his claim to successorship.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I knew that you would know.

Book 8 Ruhi is recommended.

Regards Tony

 

[trident765]

Personally, I don't think a breakaway Baha'i movement is the answer since that defeats the whole purpose of unity. Also, any such movement would never succeed, since most Baha'is are with the UHJ, and as you said the pool of Baha'is who might be open to breaking away from the mainstream is very small.

I think the Baha'i groups should get together and pool their ideas and knowledge. What will prevent that from happening is the diehard Baha'is who are with the UHJ who simply reject all Baha'is who are not with the UHJ, and of course the Baha'i groups who are not with the UHJ will reject the Baha'is who are with the UHJ.

Do you see the problem?

If 30 years ago Juan Cole had led a breakaway Baha'i sect, then there might have been a serious Baha'i community in the world today. But now there is none. Today's Baha'i communities resemble nursing homes. They are on their way out, they are dying one by one.

A serious Baha'i sect would be worth infinitely more than the Haifan Baha'i one, even if it were very small, because Haifan Baha'ism is clearly not going to survive, but a serious Baha'i sect might.

 

[Riders]

Here are some beginning questions for all parties to kick the discussion off;

1. What do you see as the key features of the Kitab-i-Ahd (Book of Baha'u'llah's Covenant)?

2. How do you view the (alleged) infallibility of Abdul-Baha? How is it seen by other members of your group?

3. Does your group simply go by the name "Baha'i" or do you have other names to differentiate it from other Baha'i groups?

4. Are all Houses of Justice equal in your Baha'i group?

5. Do you have a living guardian (and do you even see one as necessary)?

2. The infallibility? Would that be the same as Christians see Jesus? Did Abdul go to a crucifixion for death?

 

[Riders]

Book 8 Ruhi is recommended.

Regards Tony

Is that the bible for B'hai ?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In this Tablet Bahá’u’lláh further confirms that all beings are created through a word from Him and that no one can claim equality, likeness or partnership with Him. He and He alone is the possessor of the [pg 171] Most Great Infallibility which is the prerogative of every Manifestation of God.

There are different degrees of infallibility:

"Know thou that the term ‘Infallibility’ hath numerous meanings and divers stations. In one sense it is applicable to the One Whom God hath made immune from error. Similarly it is applied to every soul whom God hath guarded against sin, transgression, rebellion, impiety, disbelief and the like. However, the Most Great Infallibility is confined to the One Whose station is immeasurably exalted beyond ordinances or prohibitions and is sanctified from errors and omissions. Indeed He is a Light which is not followed by darkness and a Truth not overtaken by error. Were He to pronounce water to be wine or heaven to be earth or light to be fire, He speaketh the truth and no doubt would there be about it; and unto no one is given the right to question His authority or to say why or wherefore. Whosoever raiseth objections will be numbered with the froward in the Book of God, the Lord of the worlds. ‘Verily He shall not be asked of His doings but all others shall be asked of their doings.’ 8 He is come from the invisible heaven, bearing the banner ‘He doeth whatsoever He willeth’ and is accompanied by hosts of power and authority while it is the duty of all besides Him to strictly observe whatever laws and ordinances have been enjoined upon them, and should anyone deviate therefrom, even to the extent of a hair’s breadth, his work would be brought to naught."

Abdu'l-Baha's infallibility may not be the Most Great Infallibility, but certainly, as a successor of Baha'u'llah, He must have been given a lesser degree of infallibility, in the same way that I am not given the most great falibility, but lesser falibility.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is that the bible for B'hai ?

Hello Riders, I hope all is well for you.

Rhui is a structured learning platform where all users can gain a better understanding of the Messages given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

This is their website

Home

As a contribution to this learning process, the Ruhi Institute carries out action and research in the field, in order to develop programs and materials that enhance the capacity of individuals and communities to serve humanity.

www.ruhi.org

Regards Tony