Baha'i groups discuss the Covenant of Baha'u'llah

[Honorable_Skeptic]

That is the proof the Baha'i are on the right path.

Regards Tony

No, that is just you sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming, "LA LA LA.....CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

If your faith makes you act more like children than adults, it is worthless.

At least trident doesn't LIE to people like you Haifans do.

Yes that is correct, all past faiths have suffered the breaking of the Covenant given of God and it was upon Peter that Jesus Christ would build the Church.

With Muhammad, the rightful succession was through Imam Ali, just as the Bible predicted, that Covenant was broken on Muhammad's death bed.

There is One God and all the Names are One.

Thus it is a valid argument. The bounty in this age is that it is a signed and sealed Covenant from God's Messenger. In this age their is no doubt as to succession and thus the Oneness of Humanity has found the strongest foundation for its unity.

It is 100 years since the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah, through Abdul'baha was passed on to Shoghi Effendi and in 1957 when Shoghi Effendi passed away, the Covenant went to The Universal House of Justice, the body that Shoghi Effendi was preparing the Baha'i world for.

Interestingly, on this 100th anniversary, the Universal House of Justice gave a 27 page letter to the Baha'i World and one can guess the theme of that letter, yes, the power and supremacy of the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah, it mentions the attempts at each stage of transition that people have made to break that Covenant and their 100% futile endeavours to effect a division in the Baha'i Faith, only attracting a handful of misguided souls.

May peace be with you, all the best, Regards Tony

There is no evidence, not even in the Christian Scriptures, that Peter went to Rome. Rather, it was Paul, who wasn't even an original disciple of Jesus, who went to Rome. So the Roman Catholic Church must have been founded by Paul, invalidating your claim. There is no legitimate form of Christianity now.

Since your interpretation of the Covenant of a different religion is flawed, it is logical to conclude yours is about your own.

If something is proven a lie, like the Haifan Baha'i dogmas of its phony "Covenant", no amount of false rhetoric can ever restore its credibility.

Baha'u'llah appointed TWO successors to himself, but Abdu'l-Baha only allowed himself to rule with absolute authority and replaced his brother with his grandson later, a supremely irresponsible thing to do.

Shoghi Effendi died with no will and appointed no successor because he had no children and had kicked out of the community every one of his siblings and cousins. Also a supremely irresponsible thing to do. He also committed backbiting by attacking those relatives in the sort of hateful remarks that made him look profoundly immature.

The Universal House of Justice functions with no Guardian at its head, thus violating the terms of Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament. Its absolute authority is unjustified.

I have no use anymore for a religion that is based on lies. Period!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, that is just you sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming, "LA LA LA.....CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

More like I can hear you. Baha'u'llah said such remarks will be our lot and to leave such people alone to their own devices.

I put my trust in Baha'u'llah and the given Covenant through Abdul'baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.

I have absolutely no desire to continue such rhetoric and say, all the best in life and goodbye.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

No, that is just you sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming, "LA LA LA.....CAN'T HEAR YOU!"

If your faith makes you act more like children than adults, it is worthless.

At least trident doesn't LIE to people like you Haifans do.

There is no evidence, not even in the Christian Scriptures, that Peter went to Rome. Rather, it was Paul, who wasn't even an original disciple of Jesus, who went to Rome. So the Roman Catholic Church must have been founded by Paul, invalidating your claim. There is no legitimate form of Christianity now.

Since your interpretation of the Covenant of a different religion is flawed, it is logical to conclude yours is about your own.

If something is proven a lie, like the Haifan Baha'i dogmas of its phony "Covenant", no amount of false rhetoric can ever restore its credibility.

Baha'u'llah appointed TWO successors to himself, but Abdu'l-Baha only allowed himself to rule with absolute authority and replaced his brother with his grandson later, a supremely irresponsible thing to do.

Shoghi Effendi died with no will and appointed no successor because he had no children and had kicked out of the community every one of his siblings and cousins. Also a supremely irresponsible thing to do. He also committed backbiting by attacking those relatives in the sort of hateful remarks that made him look profoundly immature.

The Universal House of Justice functions with no Guardian at its head, thus violating the terms of Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament. Its absolute authority is unjustified.

I have no use anymore for a religion that is based on lies. Period!

It sounds like you bought the farm.
And of course you knew all about that farm before you bought it.

 

[Trailblazer]

At least trident doesn't LIE to people like you Haifans do.

Careful, you are skating on thin ice. We don't call people liars on this forum, it is against the rules.

There is no evidence, not even in the Christian Scriptures, that Peter went to Rome. Rather, it was Paul, who wasn't even an original disciple of Jesus, who went to Rome. So the Roman Catholic Church must have been founded by Paul, invalidating your claim. There is no legitimate form of Christianity now.

Since your interpretation of the Covenant of a different religion is flawed, it is logical to conclude yours is about your own.

Real logical conclusion..
Sounds more like the fallacy of hasty generalization and the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

If something is proven a lie, like the Haifan Baha'i dogmas of its phony "Covenant", no amount of false rhetoric can ever restore its credibility.

Nothing has been proven a lie. Have fun proving it.

I have no use anymore for a religion that is based on lies. Period!

Neither do I, and that is why I belong to the one and only true Baha'i Faith rather than the fake Baha'i groups who broke the Covenant.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes that is correct, all past faiths have suffered the breaking of the Covenant given of God

Can you name the "covenant" and how it was broken in Hinduism and Buddhism?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Actually, no they are.. in God.

you know i am a strong atheist. i do not believe in god, messengers and prophecies bla-bla.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

you know i am a strong atheist. i do not believe in god, messengers and prophecies bla-bla.

 

[bahamut19]

More like I can hear you. Baha'u'llah said such remarks will be our lot and to leave such people alone to their own devices.

I put my trust in Baha'u'llah and the given Covenant through Abdul'baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.

I have absolutely no desire to continue such rhetoric and say, all the best in life and goodbye.

Regards Tony

And I put my trust in God and His Manifestations.

 

[Truthseeker]

If something is proven a lie, like the Haifan Baha'i dogmas of its phony "Covenant", no amount of false rhetoric can ever restore its credibility.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but what you re saying is not "proven", it is your opinion, and it has no effect of how I see it, because I see no evidence presented on your part below that would convince me that what you are saying is true. Admittedly I am coming late to what you are saying, maybe you presented evidence that would be more convincing to me, but I doubt you did. I have looked at all of this carefully myself, and I believe the Covenant is alive and well. I have heard similar criticisms like yours before. I rather doubt that I could convince you of my position, and Baha'u'llah said this:

36. O SON OF DUST!
The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

I perceive that I won't have a hearing with you about the Covenant.

 

[bahamut19]

You are entitled to your own opinion, but what you re saying is not "proven", it is your opinion, and it has no effect of how I see it, because I see no evidence presented on your part below that would convince me that what you are saying is true. Admittedly I am coming late to what you are saying, maybe you presented evidence that would be more convincing to me, but I doubt you did. I have looked at all of this carefully myself, and I believe the Covenant is alive and well. I have heard similar criticisms like yours before. I rather doubt that I could convince you of my position, and Baha'u'llah said this:

36. O SON OF DUST!
The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay.
(Baha'u'llah, The Persian Hidden Words)

I perceive that I won't have a hearing with you about the Covenant.

Actually quite a lot was presented by myself and trident, but most of it was ignored or not even commented on. Its why I'm functionally done with the "debate." Its not a debate being done in good faith.

 

[Truthseeker]

Actually quite a lot was presented by myself and trident, but most of it was ignored or not even commented on. Its why I'm functionally done with the "debate." Its not a debate being done in good faith.

Well, okay, I was not here much recently, so I wasn't replying! I had gotten tired with the debate earlier. I regret that I quit earlier now. This is number 311 in the number of posts here in this thread, so I guess this should be wrapped up. I don't have the time to reply to backtrack to all the "evidence" and consider and reply to all of them now.

 

[CG Didymus]

Actually quite a lot was presented by myself and trident, but most of it was ignored or not even commented on. Its why I'm functionally done with the "debate." Its not a debate being done in good faith.

It's like why does Donald Trump need to debate with the other people trying to get the GOP nomination for president? He's got such a big lead, why bother. The Haifan's are so big that they don't need to waste their time and energy on a few people that aren't going to change their minds anyway.

Trouble is... those of us that aren't Baha'is were learning some interesting things. One thing that I'd like to know is... how do you see them? I know they call you "covenant-breakers" and shun you. But do you have a special category for them? And where do you see the future for your Baha'i group and theirs?

 

[Vinayaka]

Actually quite a lot was presented by myself and trident, but most of it was ignored or not even commented on. Its why I'm functionally done with the "debate." Its not a debate being done in good faith.

I'm curious. Did you expect anything different? Have you had discussions with Baha'i folks before, and if so, how did that go?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes that is correct, all past faiths have suffered the breaking of the Covenant given of God and it was upon Peter that Jesus Christ would build the Church.

With Muhammad, the rightful succession was through Imam Ali, just as the Bible predicted,

Which verses in the Bible do Baha'is believe predicts that?

The two witnesses in Revelation are Muhammad and Imam Ali. The reason it says those two dead bodies layer in the street, is because the Covenant was broken Immediately upon the passing of Muhammad. Yet they were given 1260 years "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." (Each day for a year)

Abdu'l-Baha explained this chapter Revellation 11 in detail.

Note verse 7 where the Beast takes power over the two witnesses, this is the Sunni line. Then verse 8 states how the Faith given by Muhammad, who Ali was the Successor, became a dead body. Which would rule up to the year 1260 (31/2 Days is also 1260)

Well, the thread has kind of run its course, so I'll ask my questions about your posts now.

Do Unitarian and Haifan Baha'is agree with this? If so, then both can give their answers. For me this and other "fulfilled" prophecies are badly taken out of context and then creatively interpreted. Muhammad and Ali never prophesied for 1260 years. They didn't lie dead in the streets for 1260 years and the Umayyads, Abbasids, Sunnis or anyone else didn't rule for 1260 years.

The "creative" part for me is how Baha'is can make any reference of 1260 days, 42 months or 3 1/2 days are all made into 1260 years and all start at the same time, the beginning of the Islamic calendar. But none of the events started at the same time. Would good is a "prophecy" if it can be manipulated this way?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm curious. Did you expect anything different? Have you had discussions with Baha'i folks before, and if so, how did that go?

I don't know if the other Baha'is listened to the other Baha'i groups but I know for a fact that @Truthseeker listened to their side.

They complain that we don't listen to their side, but did they listen to our side?
I don't really know since I have not been following this thread very closely. I don't think who is the successor to Abdu'l-Baha can be proven either way, so why argue about it? It is only a matter of personal opinion.

One reason I don't spend time researching the Covenant is because I don't care about the Covenant and the Baha'i Faith administration.
The Baha'is tell me I have to care but that is their problem.

All I care about is Baha'u'llah and what He wrote. Religions always get off track after the Prophet founder dies.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm curious. Did you expect anything different? Have you had discussions with Baha'i folks before, and if so, how did that go?

I don't know if or when Tony will respond to this, so maybe you can help. Are there "covenants" similar to those in the Abrahamic religions in the Dharmic religions? If so, who broke them and when were they broken. If not, then it's just more generalizations by a Baha'i to make all religions fit their beliefs.

Can you name the "covenant" and how it was broken in Hinduism and Buddhism?

 

[bahamut19]

Well, the thread has kind of run its course, so I'll ask my questions about your posts now.

Do Unitarian and Haifan Baha'is agree with this? If so, then both can give their answers. For me this and other "fulfilled" prophecies are badly taken out of context and then creatively interpreted. Muhammad and Ali never prophesied for 1260 years. They didn't lie dead in the streets for 1260 years and the Umayyads, Abbasids, Sunnis or anyone else didn't rule for 1260 years.

The "creative" part for me is how Baha'is can make any reference of 1260 days, 42 months or 3 1/2 days are all made into 1260 years and all start at the same time, the beginning of the Islamic calendar. But none of the events started at the same time. Would good is a "prophecy" if it can be manipulated this way?

I don't necessarily believe in this interpretation either, and Abdul-Baha wasn't particularly interpreting Baha'u'llah's revelation when he was teaching this stuff.

For example, in the Qur'an (which I believe is revelation from God), there is no particular timeline for when the next "trumpet" and "blast" were to occur. However, the Qur'an does say each Messenger's message is the "trumpet" and when the people disobey, its effect is the "blast." The Qur'an promised two trumpets and two blasts in succession. It just doesn't say when.

I believe in general, the Kitab-i-Iqan is a fairly sufficient explanation of the Day of Resurrection, its signs, and its proofs in how the Bab fulfilled its signs. This explanation by Abdul-Baha, while creative, is not an interpretation of anything Baha'u'llah taught and is personal belief of his which does not exactly represent Baha'u'llah's revelation. As it is a personal belief of his, I would not disrespect it and I admire its creativity. I would not feel I should be compelled to also have this personal belief merely because he believes he is without error or a perfect person. That's just silly. Baha'u'llah taught there are a myriad number of ways to interpret mystical and symbolic scripture, and this is but one person's attempt.

About the discussion about how Hindus or Buddhists broke their Covenant, which in the Haifan Baha'i sense is about losing their chain of authority, I also do not believe this. God had never described an endless chain of authority and has always described revelation as being clear and sufficient for the people they were revealed for. The only Covenant which can be broken is failing to recognize when God speaks again.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know if or when Tony will respond to this, so maybe you can help. Are there "covenants" similar to those in the Abrahamic religions in the Dharmic religions? If so, who broke them and when were they broken. If not, then it's just more generalizations by a Baha'i to make all religions fit their beliefs.

Sheesh no. I don't even know what a covenant means. Very different paradigms. Edited to add: (CG, I was curious) Covenant - Judaism, Christianity, Islam

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do Unitarian and Haifan Baha'is agree with this?

There is only One Baha'i Faith CG, it is called the Baha'i Faith and does not have Haifan in front if it.

That Baha'i Faith is the ONLY Faith Given by Baha'u'llah for this age, no other is given by Baha'u'llah but the Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith has a written and validated Covenant that appoints Abdul'baha, then Shoghi Effendi and confirns the position of the Universal House of Justice to guide the Baha'i's.

Why this conversation will go nowhere, is that the sickness of trying to divide the Baha'i Faith has zero foundations and the attempts to raise any proof to the contrary has to ignore completely the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah. There is absolutely no circumventing the Covenant.

I put the bold in to indicate why discussion on the Covenant being in error, is 100% pointless. It has more then been validated and has been operating since the passing of Baha’u’llah and then Abdul'baha and then Shoghi Effendi, it stood strong and those that tried to break it were cut from the tree.

Regards Tony
.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is only One Baha'i Faith CG, it is called the Baha'i Faith and does not have Haifan in front if it.

You can say THAT again. Haifan Baha'is, lol.