Baha'i Haircut Law: Why Create a Law if your going to break it youself?

[Dawnofhope]

There is no doubt that Iran provides a threatening atmosphere for other religions besides the Baha’i Faith. However, as with many other Islamic countries religions such as Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism are considered protected and accorded special rights and privileges.

Freedom of religion in Iran - Wikipedia

I agree the discrimination of ethnic minorities is a serious concern:

‘some human rights groups have accused the Iranian government of violating the constitutional guarantees of equality, and the UN General Assemblyhas voiced its concern over "increasing discrimination and other human rights violations against ethnic and religious minorities." In a related report, Amnesty International says:

Despite constitutional guarantees of equality, individuals belonging to minorities in Iran, who are believed to number about half of the population of about 70 millions, are subject to an array of discriminatory laws and practices. These include land and property confiscations, denial of state and para-statal employment under the gozinesh criteria and restrictions on social, cultural, linguistic and religious freedoms which often result in other human rights violations such as the imprisonment of prisoners of conscience, grossly unfair trials of political prisoners before Revolutionary Courts, corporal punishment and use of the death penalty, as well as restrictions on movement and denial of other civil rights.

Ethnic minorities in Iran - Wikipedia

 

[Dawnofhope]

Its worth reiterating, there is much work to do internationally to improve human rights.

The human rights watch identities 90 countries with significant issues including Iran but interestingly Australia and Canada.

https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/world_report_download/201801world_report_web.pdf

If we had those on RF persecuting Rohingya Muslims trying to promote anti-Islamic feelings, I would hope such bias and prejudice would be exposed for what it is.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

1/ The law regarding hair was part of a book of laws for a future civilisation. Many of the laws revealed were non-binding at the time, and remain so today.

Every problematic law in Baha'ism is justified by claiming it is a law for the future.

2/ The book of laws (The Kitab-I-Aqdas) were revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in 1873 when He was incarcerated inder harsh conditions in the prison city Akka (see post#18). It was hardly the time to be implementing any of the laws revealed yet alone those concerning trimming of hair.

You are right you know. Getting a haircut is close to impossible. There is no way one could have got a haircut then or now that would be in accordance with Baha'i law. In fact that is why the law is for the future because to get a haircut like that we would need some quantum technology that is yet to be discovered by science.

3/ The two top photos of Bahá’u’lláh was taken 5 years before He wrote the laws and was about to be deported from Adrianople to Akka. Their inclusion is irrelevant and unnecessary.

Their inclusion is necessary because when edward browne visited Baha'u'llah in 1890 he gave the exact same description of his hair and beard:

"the jet-black hair and beard flowing down in indistinguishable luxuriance almost to the waist seemed to belie."​

4/ The other photos are not of Bahá’u’lláh and similarly irrelevant.

Oh so a Photo of Abdu'l-Baha showing him completely ignoring Baha'i teachings is irrelevant. That is great to know.

5/ The photos of Bahá’u’lláh are poor quality images of ones that Baha’is consider sacred so the intent in posting them is largely to offend Baha’is.

If displaying the picture of Baha'u'llah is that offensive to Baha'is then I can't imagine how horrified Baha'is would become if Baha'u'llah ever strolled in public.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

@adrian009 keep posting the anti-Iran material. It only shows how helpless you are in responding to simple arguments.

 

[CG Didymus]

The laws in the Kitab-i-Iqan are considered a charter for a future civilisation. As such many of the laws were not applicable at the time they were written and many are not even applicable now. The laws you have listed, for example, are not yet applicable for Baha’is in the West. They may require clarification as to what exactly they mean.

In other threads, Baha'is have said that the laws will only pertain to Baha'is. But, do Baha'is believe that the other religions will still be active? 'Cause then Islam, Judaism and Christianity and any other religion could have their own laws? Plus, will their be secular governments with their own laws too? But, since the Baha'is laws are supposedly God's new laws for this time, will they become the only law at some point?

 

[Trackdayguy]

Again incorrect.

There is none worshipped, but God.

We see naught but God, in all Faiths, given by Gods Messengers.

We look for naught but God in all things, plain and simple. This has been explained many times.

Peace be with you, regards Tony

Come on Tony you cant be serious. In Christianity, Jesus is the central figure, in Islam its Muhammad and in the Bahai faith is Baha'ullah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Come on Tony you cant be serious. In Christianity, Jesus is the central figure, in Islam its Muhammad and in the Bahai faith is Baha'ullah.

If that is how you see it, then that is how you see it.

As a Baha'i, God alone is worshiped and the Messenger is all we can know of God. All those Names are from God.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I’ve already addressed key omissions and distortions of the OP.

And so now you're determined to parrot this rubbish all over again? OK, so let's show it up for the rubbish that it is.

To recap:

1/ The law regarding hair was part of a book of laws for a future civilisation. Many of the laws revealed were non-binding at the time, and remain so today.

Oh! Let's have the context for that then! Let's all read where Bahauallah wrote 'This is not now folks, but far away in the future' ..... or anything similar.

I don't expect we'll see that in the same passage as any law about hair-cuts, but when we do, you need to understand that on the day that this law would be enforced it is a CONTRAVENTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS! You folks are supposed to have an observer's seat on the UN for Human Rights, aren't you? Hypocrisy much?

2/ The book of laws (The Kitab-I-Aqdas) were revealed by Bahá’u’lláh in 1873 when He was incarcerated inder harsh conditions in the prison city Akka (see post#18). It was hardly the time to be implementing any of the laws revealed yet alone those concerning trimming of hair.

Stop it! Please just stop it! Bahauallah was living in comfort there, and the inhabitants of Akka were not prisoners.

Human Rights didn't want oppressive rules against freedom back then, doesn't want them now, won't want them in the future. This was a very bad idea indeed, at any time.

3/ The two top photos of Bahá’u’lláh was taken 5 years before He wrote the laws and was about to be deported from Adrianople to Akka. Their inclusion is irrelevant and unnecessary.

So Bahauallah didn't believe in this stupid law then, it just popped in to his head 5 years later........ 'Oh, Let's just make everybody cut their hair like this!' Eh? And then decades later when women are breaking out of the oppressive moulds that they were living in a Bahai Leader has a Divine Guidance that this only applies to men?

4/ The other photos are not of Bahá’u’lláh and similarly irrelevant.

They are of Bahais! Influential Bahais! Secretaries, Sons, etc...... and nonme of them agreed with a haircut law..... quite obviously.

5/ The photos of Bahá’u’lláh are poor quality images of ones that Baha’is consider sacred so the intent in posting them is largely to offend Baha’is.

The pictures were RELEVANT to the thread, Adrian! When a religious leader writes down a seriously bad law which would affect the individual expressions of several billion people one day, it was/is RELEVANT to show that this law was not believed in or supported at any time by the writer.

If the intent of the OP is to portray a non-binding injunction concerning hair length as extreme, it appears hypocritical given the hijab remains mandatory in Iran despite widespread opposition and the imposition of prison sentences for violations.

REDIRECTION! Oh! Look lover there! Look anywhere, but not at the issue to hand.
I don'#t live in Iran, I live in England, and where I live there is no legislation about Hijabs. Obey the laws of the lands that you live in.

How did you think that throwing muck at a single country could possibly hide the mindset of Bahai, and how it would think and act once (if ever) built up to a World Order.... a Bahai World Order?

We've told you before that many writings since the dawn of Bahai (1840's), if implemented, once power is grasped, would produce a World WITHOUT ADEQUATE HUMAN RIGHTS!

I think Bahai should resign from the U.N.Human Rights committee and give the observer's chair to a body that believes in personal freedom of expression and choice as far as possible.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha’is being imprisoned on trumped up charges as well as being deprived of employment and education opportunities available to all other citizens are daily persecution.

Profiles of the seven Baha’i “leaders” - Bahá’í World News Service

Bahá'í 7 - Wikipedia

You told me that Bahais are oppressed each day.
I asked you for any cases from recently and you've picked a case history from over ten years ago (5 March 2008) written by Bahais who do not seem to me to be able to report a situation objectively. You tell me that the charges were trumped up......... I wonder whether in fact they bust Iranian Legislation? Maybe you yourself cannot report objectively about this?

Please don't tell me what a bad time Bahais have with education and employment. Of course the Madrassas will not want Bahais in them. I expect that many Muslims won't want to employ Bahais......... I wonder whether Bahais would employ Muslims if they could find a suitable Bahai applicant?

NEWS FLASH!
This morning on BBC Teletext it is reported that a review by the Bishop of Truro has found that 215,000,000 Christians in the World face Discrimination and Violence every day.

250 Christians are killed, executed or murdered EVERY MONTH around the World.

Since Bahai is so keen to report discrimination and oppression, and since it claims to be interested enough to sit in the observer's chair at the Human Rights Committee of the United Nations, what efforts has Bahai taken to warn the World of genocides, discriminations, harassments and victimisations of religions, groups, cultures and nationals around the World?

 

[Dawnofhope]

In other threads, Baha'is have said that the laws will only pertain to Baha'is. But, do Baha'is believe that the other religions will still be active? 'Cause then Islam, Judaism and Christianity and any other religion could have their own laws? Plus, will their be secular governments with their own laws too? But, since the Baha'is laws are supposedly God's new laws for this time, will they become the only law at some point?

Baha’i laws are for Baha’is to follow. For example Baha’i laws such as obligatory prayer, fasting, marriage laws would apply only to Baha’is. In the future should a country have a majority Baha’i population, that country through democratic means could decide to have a Baha’i system of government. The details would be worked through by consultation with all affected parties.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh! Let's have the context for that then! Let's all read where Bahauallah wrote 'This is not now folks, but far away in the future' ..... or anything similar.

I don't expect we'll see that in the same passage as any law about hair-cuts, but when we do, you need to understand that on the day that this law would be enforced it is a CONTRAVENTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS! You folks are supposed to have an observer's seat on the UN for Human Rights, aren't you? Hypocrisy much?

It appears that you have still not considered that quite a few of these Laws are not for this time. This civilization as we know it, will crumble and fall. If it does not, then you need not worry, there will be no Baha'i Faith, as all the prophecy in all the holy books and confirmed in the Baha'i Writings, would have been proven to be false and done away with.

Thus after Humanity starts the rebuilding process, they will have also finally embraced the wisdom given by Baha'u'llah and these Laws will be implemented in full, the wisdom they contain, appreciated. Until then, if there is a then, only the Baha'i have the bounty to implement these laws, just as this book allows them to do.

I put the context in bold below;

The Guardian tells us in "God Passes By", p.213, "...the promulgation of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas. Alluded to in the Kitáb-i-Íqán; the principal repository of that Law which the Prophet Isaiah had anticipated, and which the writer of the Apocalypse had described as the “new heaven” and the “new earth,” as “the Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “Bride,” the “New Jerusalem coming down from God,” this “Most Holy Book,” whose provisions must remain inviolate for no less than a thousand years, and whose system will embrace the entire planet, may well be regarded as the brightest emanation of the mind of Bahá’u’lláh, as the Mother Book of His Dispensation, and the Charter of His New World Order...............In this Charter of the future world civilization its Author—at once the Judge, the Lawgiver, the Unifier and Redeemer of mankind—announces to the kings of the earth the promulgation of the “Most Great Law”; pronounces them to be His vassals; proclaims Himself the “King of Kings”; disclaims any intention of laying hands on their kingdoms; reserves for Himself the right to “seize and possess the hearts of men”; warns the world’s ecclesiastical leaders not to weigh the “Book of God” with such standards as are current amongst them; and affirms that the Book itself is the “Unerring Balance” established amongst men. In it He formally ordains the institution of the “House of Justice,” defines its functions, fixes its revenues, and designates its members as the “Men of Justice,” the “Deputies of God,” the “Trustees of the All-Merciful,” alludes to the future Center of His Covenant, and invests Him with the right of interpreting His holy Writ; anticipates by implication the institution of Guardianship; bears witness to the revolutionizing effect of His World Order; enunciates the doctrine of the “Most Great Infallibility” of the Manifestation of God; asserts this infallibility to be the inherent and exclusive right of the Prophet; and rules out the possibility of the appearance of another Manifestation ere the lapse of at least one thousand years."

In 'God Passes By', by Shoghi Effendi, the vision of that future world order is given in great detail. Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 197-220

Its another great read, @CG Didymus might take up the challenge

"...Blessed those who peruse it! Blessed those who apprehend it! Blessed those who meditate upon it! Blessed those who ponder its meaning! So vast is its range that it hath encompassed all men ere their recognition of it. Erelong will its sovereign power, its pervasive influence and the greatness of its might be manifested on earth.”

So, peace be upon one and all, regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Every problematic law in Baha'ism is justified by claiming it is a law for the future.

It’s not a problematic law for any Baha’is in the West as it does not apply to them. I’ve never heard it being a problem for any Baha’is ever.

Their inclusion is necessary because when edward browne visited Baha'u'llah in 1890 he gave the exact same description of his hair and beard:
"the jet-black hair and beard flowing down in indistinguishable luxuriance almost to the waist seemed to belie."

Having a beard has nothing to do with having hair covering ear lobes.

Oh so a Photo of Abdu'l-Baha showing him completely ignoring Baha'i teachings is irrelevant. That is great to know.

The one picture Where we can clearly see Abdu’l-Baha, his ear lobes look fine.

If displaying the picture of Baha'u'llah is that offensive to Baha'is then I can't imagine how horrified Baha'is would become if Baha'u'llah ever strolled in public.

It was unnecessary to include this photo as it was taken 5 years before the Kitab-i-Aqdas was written.

@adrian009 keep posting the anti-Iran material. It only shows how helpless you are in responding to simple arguments.

Or the hypocrisy of highlighting laws regarding hair that cause absolutely no problems for Baha’is while laws concerning covering hair in Iran through the Hijab result in serious problems for many Iranian women who don’t want to comply.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And so now you're determined to parrot this rubbish all over again? OK, so let's show it up for the rubbish that it is.

If we can not have a respectful, civilised discussion then best we don’t talk.

Oh! Let's have the context for that then! Let's all read where Bahauallah wrote 'This is not now folks, but far away in the future' ..... or anything similar.

I don't expect we'll see that in the same passage as any law about hair-cuts, but when we do, you need to understand that on the day that this law would be enforced it is a CONTRAVENTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS! You folks are supposed to have an observer's seat on the UN for Human Rights, aren't you? Hypocrisy much?

Many Baha’i laws are for Baha’is only to follow and are between the individual and God. Should this law be clarified and become binding on Baha’is in the future there is no reason to believe it will be anybody’s business but the Baha’i who wishes to follow Bahá’u’lláh’s Teachings. You don’t seem to realise, or ignore the fact that most Baha’i laws are a matter of conscience only. Assemblies have no role in ensuring individuals are complying with most laws.

Stop it! Please just stop it! Bahauallah was living in comfort there, and the inhabitants of Akka were not prisoners.

Human Rights didn't want oppressive rules against freedom back then, doesn't want them now, won't want them in the future. This was a very bad idea indeed, at any time.

I have already clearly demonstrated Bahá’u’lláh and His companions were prisoners and they were not living in comfort.

The rest of your post appears to be a lot of ranting and raving. All the best.

So Bahauallah didn't believe in this stupid law then, it just popped in to his head 5 years later........ 'Oh, Let's just make everybody cut their hair like this!' Eh? And then decades later when women are breaking out of the oppressive moulds that they were living in a Bahai Leader has a Divine Guidance that this only applies to men?

 

[Vinayaka]

Come on Tony you cant be serious. In Christianity, Jesus is the central figure, in Islam its Muhammad and in the Bahai faith is Baha'ullah.

Earlier you said that it seems like the Baha'i are getting bashed a lot. So you make a pretty innocent comment, and the first response is 'You're wrong'. That is how it is, in this discussion. It's pretty much that is any non-Baha'i makes any comment at all about the Baha'i faith, the response is 'You're wrong'. Little wonder it appears as 'bashing' now. After 2 plus years of this, and a newcomer enters the foray, I suppose it might seem this way.

Obviously prophets, messiahs, and such are central to these faiths. In order to become a Baha'i, you have to pledge allegiance to Baha'u'llah, not to God.

Trek on.

 

[Trackdayguy]

This post is getting boring.

 

[oldbadger]

If we can not have a respectful, civilised discussion then best we don’t talk.

Many Baha’i laws are for Baha’is only to follow and are between the individual and God. Should this law be clarified and become binding on Baha’is in the future there is no reason to believe it will be anybody’s business but the Baha’i who wishes to follow Bahá’u’lláh’s Teachings. You don’t seem to realise, or ignore the fact that most Baha’i laws are a matter of conscience only. Assemblies have no role in ensuring individuals are complying with most laws.

I have already clearly demonstrated Bahá’u’lláh and His companions were prisoners and they were not living in comfort.

The rest of your post appears to be a lot of ranting and raving. All the best.

I was really in the debating mood with that last post.
My 'parroting' description was rude....... I'm sorry for that. I was referring to general repetition by Bahai and not to you personally.

But as you can see I do feel that the only way to show up this continuous repetitive inflexible chanting against Islam, Iran and us folks who are shaking Bahai tenets somewhat is that kind of robust approach.

I hope we can start exchanging posts again, but I think that both of us know that we will have our moments of clash.

 

[oldbadger]

It appears that you have still not considered that quite a few of these Laws are not for this time. This civilization as we know it, will crumble and fall. If it does not, then you need not worry, there will be no Baha'i Faith, as all the prophecy in all the holy books and confirmed in the Baha'i Writings, would have been proven to be false and done away with.

Hi Tony......... thanks for your post.
Yep.......... I know it's all about some distant time, some hoped for civilization. Some of us here are just saying that we believe that it would be wrong in so many ways.

Thus after Humanity starts the rebuilding process, they will have also finally embraced the wisdom given by Baha'u'llah and these Laws will be implemented in full, the wisdom they contain, appreciated. Until then, if there is a then, only the Baha'i have the bounty to implement these laws, just as this book allows them to do.

I can't answer for any others, but as a Deist I have to place all my faith in Nature to start any processes, whether for better or worse.

I wouldn't want to live in a Bahai World because I perceive that we would simply be going round again..... not a good round, either.

I put the context in bold below;

I read it, Tony.
You know, even Hitler had what he thought were wonderful ideas for a heavenly (Aryan) millennium..... it's just that very few folks wanted Hitler's ideas, and some of us don't want what we read about Bahai as the panacea for humanity either.

We don't like what we read about it, is all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony......... thanks for your post.
Yep.......... I know it's all about some distant time, some hoped for civilization. Some of us here are just saying that we believe that it would be wrong in so many ways.



I can't answer for any others, but as a Deist I have to place all my faith in Nature to start any processes, whether for better or worse.

I wouldn't want to live in a Bahai World because I perceive that we would simply be going round again..... not a good round, either.


I read it, Tony.
You know, even Hitler had what he thought were wonderful ideas for a heavenly (Aryan) millennium..... it's just that very few folks wanted Hitler's ideas, and some of us don't want what we read about Bahai as the panacea for humanity either.

We don't like what we read about it, is all.

Thank you oldbadger. That is a wonderful answer. That is an answer we can all live with in unity in our diversity.

I also see nature will guide us, so we can share that aspect of Faith and that process is well under way. When we mess with this planet, oblivious of the consequenses of creating an imbalance, then nature will correct that balance and show us we have much more to learn.

Stay happy, safe and well. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Obviously prophets, messiahs, and such are central to these faiths. In order to become a Baha'i, you have to pledge allegiance to Baha'u'llah, not to God.

Thus you will have to consider you have not understood all that has been said in all the time we have discussed these issues and why a Baha'i Loves all of God's Messengers.

It all comes to one thing and that is the Love of God. Names are a veil.

By accepting what is of God, it is also finding our path to God.

It is also why it is against Baha'i Law to portray the Image of Baha'u'llah inappropriatly, in case the vessel is worshiped instead of God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trackdayguy]

A few concerns.

As I understand it the Baha'is believe that God is unknowable, If that's correct then how do you know that God is a God of love ?