Bahai scholarship of all scripture

[TransmutingSoul]

If that's the case - and I'd appreciate hearing input from more of our Baha'i members on whether that is the case - then I don't really see what I as a Jew could say about it all.

I see this level of scholarship will be engaged in in the future when humanity has found unity. There are scholars that do this in depth study, they will not be often found on chat forums.

At this time of our evolutionary path, there is too much conflict.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

that's not scholarship. Thats faith on faith propagated by faith.

Is that not what Islam scholars have done with what is mentioned in the Quran about Jesus and other biblical stories?

Do they not take the Quran version over the popular biblical position?

Some have even invented stories to go with that narrative, such as Jesus went to India, etc.

That is a valid question as I am trying to understand how its not applicable to Islam.

Regards Tony

 

[DharmaCatLamp]

I learned about the Bahai theology from Bahai's in this very forum. Prior to that my knowledge was superficial at best. Maybe even less. The Bahai's have their own methodology of calling things "scholarship" and the question of this thread is on that particular idea.

Summing things up, the Bahai's believe that all religions practically are based on God and manifestations of God. Major religions that I know of can be spoken of like Christianity where Jesus was a manifestation of God, while Krishna who has varying concepts in Hinduism was a manifestation of God, and the Buddha was a manifestation of God, and fundamentally anyone could be named a manifestation of God. Finally comes the Bab or the door, and Bahaullah who is a manifestation of God, then Abdul Baha the son, and Effendi who is the grandson where whatever divinity or the authority is "inherited".

When exploring the so called "Bahai scholarship" one would immediately note that they do not value Christian scholarship, Buddhist scholarship or Islamic Scholarship though they claim they believe all of those are valid religions, and they are all part of the same pool. Generally scholarship in the Christian bucket is deemed a naturalistic approach where the scripture is taken through a scrutiny of many variations of criticism. It's fantastic. Islamic Scholarship has a very similar approach since time immemorial though most are unaware. Buddhist scholarship is based predominantly on the Tipitaka, Jathaka, and the so called "Dharma Sangayana". I do not have much knowledge in Hinduism so maybe HIndus could collaborate and give me some knowledge.

Bahai scholarship has practically no regard for any of this but their own theology and "scholarship" is in my opinion built around building a platform for their theology. Thus it seems like any kind of scholarship will be dismissed based on their website and their theology. Due to several discussions my opinion is that there is no scholarship at all because no scholarship truly takes any criticism into account. There is no scholarship applied to the Bible or the Quran. Or even the Tipitaka. Things are randomly picked up for convenience and its called "scholarship" based on their foundation mainly quoting Effendi.

I am not speaking of theology and divine belief, just scholarship of scripture.

Christians disagree with Muslims because the Qur'an says "Ma kathaluhoo, wa ma salaboohoo" which means "they did not kill him, nor was he crucified". But the Bahai scholarship is not really scholarship at all, but a theological faith propagation that says "Jesus' body was killed, but not his spirit" while the Quran does not say that. Imposition.

The Bible clearly says he was crucified. And this creates a huge divide between Christians and Muslims. But note, that we are discussing scholarship. Bible scholars deem that Jesus was definitely crucified by the Romans due to sedition, and is a very probable occurrence. The bahai's claim he was crucified but not his spirit or some divine Jesus nature was not. Yet they claim he came already as Bahaullah. Done and dusted.

What do the Christians and the Jews think about their so called "scholarship"?

Thanks for contributing. This is just a foundation.

I think pretty much any scholarship has to deal with being biased and I think it's not that surprising really.
For me personally I believe that you can find truth in any scripture and that any scripture can guide you in the right direction depending on how you look at it. However, that isn't the same thing as saying all the scriptures say exactly the same thing. Anyone who for instance studies early Christianity with a scholarly eye is not going to say that everything in our earliest versions of the bible agrees with later versions vs even what one gospel says that differs to another.

I think divine truth is complex and can be found just about anywhere. Where I have gotten hung up with the Bahai way of doing things is that if we are just talking about what scriptures actually say they clearly don't agree and have complex differences. For me personally I am more concerned with the deeper divine truth than what is on the surface level but that being said you can''t just tell me that all scriptures throughout the entire world are apart of the same religious tradition. I highly doubt for instance that Islamic scholars would care much about stories of the Greek gods and what they might tell us.

 

[DharmaCatLamp]

In my exploration, so is fundamentalist Jewish, Christian and Islamic scholarship, so they are just following in the footsteps of their forefather religions in that sense.

In my opinion.

I would agree. As an example I greatly enjoy studying early Christianity and seeing how its views changed overtime to form the general orthodoxy that most churches in some way follow to this day. On more than one occasion I have read Christian scholars who would misrepresent the old testament and modern Jewish scholarship to make it appear that Jesus is foretold. Now you can believe that Jesus is being foretold in the Torah if you want but I think I would have to disagree with you.
I don't think Bias is a problem with just one group of scholars from one religion. Bias is everywhere.

 

[stvdv]

So, Is there any faith that does not have some for of apologetics? I personally had to look up the word, so that may say a lot.

Regards Tony

I had to look up that word, and afterwards forget what it means, so have to look it up again (ad infinitum)

Apologetics is totally useless to me, because I believe all Religions can lead you to the Truth.

Apologetics is only useful to people who claim "My Way is the Highway" IMO

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I had to look up that word, and afterwards forget what it means, so have to look it up again (ad infinitum)

Apologetics is totally useless to me, because I believe all Religions can lead you to the Truth.

Apologetics is only useful to people who claim "My Way is the Highway" IMO

I hear you and do that with many words use here, ha ha.

Maybe a Baha'i Apologetic is unique, we defend the Divine origin of all the worlds major faiths and will defend all that is good in all faiths.

The quandary we all have is being able to identify what is best for humanity, as a whole, in the long term. I am confident that God has that in hand.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

I hear you and do that with many words use here, ha ha.

Maybe a Baha'i Apologetic is unique, we defend the Divine origin of all the worlds major faiths and will defend all that is good in all faiths.

I think it's very good to see the good in others (and their Faiths)

Apologetics seems to be for people who feel they need to proselytize, because they need to talk others away from the Religion they now have, into the Religion of the proselytizer

 

[stvdv]

The quandary we all have is being able to identify what is best for humanity, as a whole, in the long term. I am confident that God has that in hand.

All the best, Regards Tony

#MeToo

Yes, I trust God enough to not worry about "humanity as a whole" or "planet earth". Evolution worked miracles in the past, I think evolution will take care of it again

 

[firedragon]

Or maybe I am and it is indistinguishable from apologetics amongst the fundamentalist religions.
For example consider the so called scholarship (read apolgetics) that goes into trying to prove that Jesus was not crucified amongst Muslims.

In my opinion.

Please give an example. Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Is that not what Islam scholars have done with what is mentioned in the Quran about Jesus and other biblical stories?

Do they not take the Quran version over the popular biblical position?

Some have even invented stories to go with that narrative, such as Jesus went to India, etc.

That is a valid question as I am trying to understand how its not applicable to Islam.

Regards Tony

Please refer to which scholar exactly you are referring to.

 

[firedragon]

I think pretty much any scholarship has to deal with being biased and I think it's not that surprising really.
For me personally I believe that you can find truth in any scripture and that any scripture can guide you in the right direction depending on how you look at it. However, that isn't the same thing as saying all the scriptures say exactly the same thing. Anyone who for instance studies early Christianity with a scholarly eye is not going to say that everything in our earliest versions of the bible agrees with later versions vs even what one gospel says that differs to another.

I think divine truth is complex and can be found just about anywhere. Where I have gotten hung up with the Bahai way of doing things is that if we are just talking about what scriptures actually say they clearly don't agree and have complex differences. For me personally I am more concerned with the deeper divine truth than what is on the surface level but that being said you can''t just tell me that all scriptures throughout the entire world are apart of the same religious tradition. I highly doubt for instance that Islamic scholars would care much about stories of the Greek gods and what they might tell us.

What you say is interesting. But that's not how scholarship works. you have mixed scholars with proselytisation.

 

[firedragon]

Is that not what Islam scholars have done with what is mentioned in the Quran about Jesus and other biblical stories?

Do they not take the Quran version over the popular biblical position?

Some have even invented stories to go with that narrative, such as Jesus went to India, etc.

That is a valid question as I am trying to understand how its not applicable to Islam.

Regards Tony

See, everyone has invented stories. Since you are quoting "Islamic scholars", could you please explain what is the method they have used, and why you agree or disagree?

thanks.

 

[firedragon]

It's true that it's large. But that doesn't mean someone can't attain a cursory knowledge in it. But if Baha'is as you say typically don't include it in their studies, then I don't think we as Jews have any say on their studies. Like two lines that never meet.

I didnt know you were a Jew. But I can guess by your post you are.

Just explore. the bahai's make claims based on the Tanakh. They even claim their Bahaullah is predicted in the Tanakh. Ask them.

 

[Harel13]

I didnt know you were a Jew

That is most surprising to read.

 

[firedragon]

That is most surprising to read.

I must apologise.

 

[RabbiO]

That is most surprising to read.

Be gentle with @firedragon. I have a funeral this morning, a dear friend, younger than I am - No, not covid. Those remarks may have given me my only chuckle of the day.

 

[DharmaCatLamp]

What you say is interesting. But that's not how scholarship works. you have mixed scholars with proselytisation.

What I mean is that bias is going to creep up pretty much no matter what and the idea that any group is completely free of bias is silly. Even if you are talking about the bias that comes with using certain methods over others, using certain scriptures etc.

 

[Harel13]

I must apologise.

I have no reason to be mad. I'm just surprised. I take it you've never looked at my religious profile.

 

[firedragon]

I have no reason to be mad. I'm just surprised. I take it you've never looked at my religious profile.

Maybe a weakness of mine.

 

[firedragon]

What I mean is that bias is going to creep up pretty much no matter what and the idea that any group is completely free of bias is silly. Even if you are talking about the bias that comes with using certain methods over others, using certain scriptures etc.

Thats true. There is always bias. Always.