Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You're too late.
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Baha'i Totalitarian Oligarchy?
- Thread starter ppp
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- baha'i totalitarian
The statements in the source are unfounded. What’s required are references to the Baha’i writings themselves.
Baha’is are asked to be obedient to government and to avoid getting involved in politics. Any future Baha’i government relies on having the vast majority of the population of a country being Baha’i and everyone democratically asking for a Baha’i model. That’s unlikely to happen anytime soon. What that Baha’i government would look like can only be faintly imagined. It would need to be a government that everyone can participate in and be a government for all people.
Baha’is are asked to be obedient to government and to avoid getting involved in politics. Any future Baha’i government relies on having the vast majority of the population of a country being Baha’i and everyone democratically asking for a Baha’i model. That’s unlikely to happen anytime soon. What that Baha’i government would look like can only be faintly imagined. It would need to be a government that everyone can participate in and be a government for all people.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sorry, I was on the run when I first read this post so I did not see that you were quoting from a Source.
Gee whiz, I cannot imagine what that Source would be biased.
P.S. There is more to life than sex.
Imo.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Not really. The only reason I noted the article was because it tied into something another Baha'i poster spoke of the other day. Once with regards to governments looking to some sort of Baha'i council as advisory boards. And another post regarding slavery getting a bad rap. Both of his posts carried warning flags for totalitarian mindsets.
The Vatican has said much the same over the centuries. Heh.
The Vatican has of course varied from pulling strings subtly to fielding armies to enforce its will. This is not to say that Baha'i would do the same, but it's not a vague statement. Almost politic.Would the majority of the populace being Baha'i justify religious imposition on non-Baha'i?
ppp
Well-Known Member
Does it matter if the source is biased?Sorry, I was on the run when I first read this post so I did not see that you were quoting from a Source.
Gee whiz, I cannot imagine what that Source would be biased.
That is true of every single aspect of a life. What's your point?
You misunderstood what was offered, plain and simple.
You took what was said in your mindset.
Regards Tony
ppp
Well-Known Member
That's possible. The floor is yours.
(regarding which topic?)
No as the source has an agenda. The future is not known and the future will be what humanity makes of it, when it becomes a united whole. As such we are yet to know what basis they will choose to guide them.
As Adrian has offered, this subject has to be viewed across the whole body of the Baha'i writings.
Baha'i are advised not to engage in political controversy or party politics. So I will not comment on anything that goes that direction, even if this OP goes that way, I will remove myself.
Regards Tony
You can, if you wish, trace the comments you made in this OP back to the sources. Quote them and a reply can be given.
Regards Tony
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course it matters. Nothing could matter more.
My point was that most homosexuals do not like the Baha'i Faith because of the Baha'i Law that prohibits homosexual behavior. I have my opinions but I do not want to open up that can of worms, as that would require a whole new thread.That is true of every single aspect of a life. What's your point?
Suffice to say that I cannot really understand how homosexuals feel since I have never walked in their moccasins, but I am not the one who wrote the Law. I have mixed feelings about it but I understand why it was written, so I accept it. Moreover, it does not mean that the Baha'i Faith precludes homosexuals from membership. there are Baha'is who are homosexuals and nobody on any of the institutions of the Baha'i Faith are going to monitor their personal activities. If they were flagrantly "out there" going to gay bars and identifying themselves as a Baha'i they could lose their voting rights, that is the worst that could happen.
ppp
Well-Known Member
If you actually knew that I "misunderstood what was offered, plain and simple," you would already know what I was commenting upon. Thanks for the kneejerk denial, but no thanks,
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Gee, I wonder why you would think that?
Maybe this will help clarify the position of Baha'is in regard to politics.
“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”
The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Tony did not say that you "misunderstood what was offered, plain and simple."
I think you understood what the article said and that is what you were commenting upon.
Whether the article accurately represented the Baha'i Faith is another matter altogether.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
No.Not really. The only reason I noted the article was because it tied into something another Baha'i poster spoke of the other day. Once with regards to governments looking to some sort of Baha'i council as advisory boards. And another post regarding slavery getting a bad rap. Both of his posts carried warning flags for totalitarian mindsets.
The Vatican has said much the same over the centuries. Heh.
Would the majority of the populace being Baha'i justify religious imposition on non-Baha'i?
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Dear Bahá’í Friend,
The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:
Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53)
With loving Bahá’í greetings,
Department of the Secretariat
The Universal House of Justice has received your email message of 12 June 2018, seeking guidance about the nature of the administration of a country when the majority of its population will have accepted the Faith and how in that circumstance minorities would be treated. We have been asked to convey the following and regret the delay in our response. It is not possible to describe with particularity how the governance of a country might be affected when the majority of its people accept the Faith. However, any change will be by democratic means and not by force. The writings of our Faith make it clear that under a Bahá’í system the rights of minorities must always be respected and upheld. Shoghi Effendi has enunciated this principle:
Unlike the nations and peoples of the earth, be they of the East or of the West, democratic or authoritarian, communist or capitalist, whether belonging to the Old World or the New, who either ignore, trample upon, or extirpate, the racial, religious, or political minorities within the sphere of their jurisdiction, every organized community enlisted under the banner of Bahá’u’lláh should feel it to be its first and inescapable obligation to nurture, encourage, and safeguard every minority belonging to any faith, race, class, or nation within it. (The Advent of Divine Justice (Wilmette: Bahá’í Publishing Trust, 2006, 2015 printing), p. 53)
With loving Bahá’í greetings,
Department of the Secretariat
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I was curious, so I took some time to read that article. The conclusion of the article sums things up rather nicely.
It definitely gives us something to think about. My emphasis in red.
Q. What does our private sex lives have to do with World Peace and the Equality of Men and Women, etc.
A. Good point! If the Bahá’í Faith is nothing more than a “set of Principles” (i.e. the “12 Principles”) then there is no reason to outlaw any sexual practice that doesn’t “harm” another. Yet, the Cause of God also teaches that certain practices “retard the progress of the soul” in the Afterlife. If there was no soul, and no Afterlife, then there is no reason to outlaw any sexual practice that doesn’t violate another’s rights or desires.
If Bahá’u’lláh is the Spirit of Truth, then certain sexual behaviors, such as fornication, adultery, and male and female homosexual acts, retard the progress of the soul in the Afterlife. We don’t know “why”. But, if He is the Spirit of Truth, then He spoke only the Truth. If we are truly Bahá’ís, then we accept what He says. We don’t need “reasons” other than that.
The main purpose of the Religion is God is NOT the World Order; nor the “12 Principles” which will be part of that Order. The main purpose of the Religion of God upon this planet is to prepare our souls for the Worlds of God in the Afterlife.
Bahá’u’lláh wrote:
“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain. (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329)
ppp
Well-Known Member
You need more than the existence of a bias to say that the person is wrong to have that bias.
I am biased against Klan marches. Does my having a bias make my assessment of Klan practices as being immoral incorrect? I am biased towards multi-cultural festivals. Does my bias make supporting multi-cultural festivals incorrect?
Not much of a point. Lots of straight people don't like the assorted cultures that impose those same prohibitions because of the same reasons.
You seem to think that is a plus. Not sure why.
You seem to think that is a plus. Again not sure why.
ppp
Well-Known Member
Yep. He did. Direct quote.
Do you think that in the same why you think that Tony did not say the words he said. You did not even bother to look at either Tony's words or the article before floating your opinion.
ppp
Well-Known Member
No. The conclusion of the articles sums up a different top. Thanks
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say it is wrong to have a bias. I was merely pointing out that if someone has a bias they cannot really be objective regarding what they are writing about.
That’s true.
I did not say it was a plus. I was just pointing it out as a fact.
I did not say it was a plus. I was just pointing it out as a fact.