Baha'i vs End Times Christianity

[james2ko]

Yes, Bible is Word of God. But, the Bible never says that, after Bible, no other scriptures will come from God. You are saying that, at the second coming of Christ, God is not allowed to add a new Book to guide people or have any writings to clear things for them, or to resolve their differences. Well, clearly at the second coming, He would clear out the differences between Christian sects. He would do that by new Scriptures, so, when they read, they understand and agree.

Currently, the Bible is the only true Word of God. To suggest that God is going to add to it or replace it at His second coming would be wildly speculative.

Well, clearly at the second coming, He would clear out the differences between Christian sects. He would do that by new Scriptures, so, when they read, they understand and agree.

I gave you a plan along with scriptural evidence describing Christ's return. So please explain to me how is He going to do this, if He is returning figuratively and not literally? And what about the rest of the people who lived and died before Christ was even born. Are they doomed because they were born at the wrong time? Shouldn't they get a chance to know Him as we do today?

I and others have given you irrefutable evidence from the very book you claim to obey, that Jesus Christ and His Saints will literally return to rule this earth.
Yet your desire is not to believe it and rely on other sources and your own preconceived traditions and beliefs. Which is fine. Just keep in mind, the bible is the only book that will be used to judge all men. Notice what Rev 20:12 says about the period of time when all men, women, and children who lived and died without knowing Christ will be judged, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books [of the bible] were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Greek word for "book" is "biblion" which is where the English word "Bible" is derived. God will use the the book of books, the Bible, to judge mankind!

 

[BruceDLimber]

Actually, many people from many religions or walks of life will worship the Antichrist (The Beast) or his image as according to Revelation....

But in fact, the ONLY mentions of the antichrist in the Bible are four in the epistles of John! And if you read them, you'll discover that:

• the antichrist was alive at the time of John, and
• was a former Christian.

Please note that NEITHER of these fits Baha'u'llah, the Founder of the Baha'i Faith!

And the "beast" in fact refers to an individual 666 years after the birth of Christ (in 661 AD) (hence the number) who corrupted Islam.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

It is more accurate to identify the Baha'i Faith with the "new name" mentioned at least twice in Revelations....

In addition to Revelation 2:17 and 3:12, the Jewish scriptures also contain this same prophecy in Isaiah 62:2!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I'm not quite sure I see the point of trying to figure out the mystery "end times" religion. Hasn't this been done time and again previously? Isn't it pretty much a one way street to accusing people who's beliefs you find to fit vague generalities as being in league with the devil?

Not necessarily, no!

The Baha'i Faith sees all this as having already happened about a century and a half ago! (Due to a mistranslation of the word "eras", which means "world" or "age") by the compilers of the KJV, the "end times" are NOT the "end of the world" but the end of the Age!)

And all this WITHOUT involvement of a "devil" figure given that God is One, Supreme, and has no rival or equal! ("Satan" is merely our own lower <animal> nature when we give it control instead of our higher <spiritual> nature.)

The many prophecies have been explained in detail and fit together very nicely!

I refer you for the details to these sites:

www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

www.bahai-library.org

(At the latter site, click "Books" and then look for Riggs' The Apocalypse: An Exegesis, which explains Revelation in verse-by-verse detail. Also check his I, Daniel for the prophecies there.)

Best!

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Basically it is understood by many to mean that when Christ returns at the 2nd Coming everyone will see it as opposed to the Rapture where only believers in Christ are caught up to Heaven.

So sorry, but that's pure human fantasy manufactured out of whole cloth!

The word "rapture" doesn't even APPEAR in the Bible, and all this is based on a single extremely vague verse! Every bit of the doctrine is PURE HUMAN EXTRAPOLATION with no firm justisfication whatever--let alone justification for further debates over the details of exactly when and how it's supposedly going to happen!

Just like the old saying of getting twenty gallons out of a ten-gallon hat!

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I follow the Golden Rule of Interpretation. . . .

Speaking of the Golden Rule, in case you're not aware, this rule is in the scriptures of ALL the great religions! I quote:

THE GOLDEN RULE​

Hindu Faith
When a man sees that the God in himself is the same God in all that is, he hurts not himnself by hurting others: then he goes to the highest Path.
Bhagavad Gita (13.28)

Buddhist Faith
Hurt not others with that which pains yourself.
Udana-Varga (15:8)

Jewish Faith
What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow men. That is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
The Talmud (Shabbat 3'a)

Zoroastrian Faith
Do not unto others all that which is not well for oneself.
_Shayast-na-Shayast_

Christian Faith
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
The Gospel of Matthew (7:12)

Muslim Faith
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Hadith of Bukhari
(quoted in "Prophet Muhammad
and His Mission_, p. 106)

Babi Faith
Become a source of comfort to one another.
Writings of the Bab, p. 129

Baha'i Faith
And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbor that which thou choosest for thyself.
Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 30

Best!

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

If you read the verses I listed describing the return of Christ, they do not make any sense if they're interpreted figuratively. Therefore, they must be taken literally.

On the contrary, they make excellent sense when properly interpreted!

I refer you to The Apocalypse: An Exegesis, the site for which I provided just above in #44.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

The overwhelming historical and archeological evidence points to the Christian Bible as being the one and only true Word of God.

So sorry, but UNLESS AND UNTIL you read the Baha'i scriptures, this ranks as mere Contempt Before Investigation, a well-known logical fallacy!


Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[to a third party] So your saying we cannot understand Christ second coming until after He returns? This would be contradictory to scripture.

On the contrary, God told Daniel to "seal up the books" until the Time of the End!

So from YOUR POV, they're still sealed (though from ours they've now been unsealed).

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Currently, the Bible is the only true Word of God.

In your view. Ours differs.

To suggest that God is going to add to it or replace it at His second coming would be wildly speculative.

Only if you ignore the fact that the prohibition in Revelation on adding to scripture is EXACTLY THE SAME prohibition found in the Jewish scriptures (in Deuteronomy 12:32)!

The fact that the New Testament could be added at God's direction after this command had been issued (clearly to humans, not to Himself) means God is perfectly able to add to scripture again as He chooses!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Currently, the Bible is the only true Word of God. To suggest that God is going to add to it or replace it at His second coming would be wildly speculative.

The End Time has already come and all the signs of the End Time are already Fulfilled. You name it!
The Bab and Baha'u'llah have revealed volumes of New Scriptures at least 20 times of the Volume of the Old Testimony and New Testimony.

So please explain to me how is He going to do this, if He is returning figuratively and not literally?

When Jesus talked about Resurrection at the End Time, a physical Resurrection was not intended. No, a spirtual Resurrection.
and the judgement Day has already come. When Baha'u'llah appeared as the new menifestation of God, He judged every one. Yes, Based on the Bible Teachings!

I and others have given you irrefutable evidence from the very book you claim to obey, that Jesus Christ and His Saints will literally return to rule this earth.
Yet your desire is not to believe it and rely on other sources and your own preconceived traditions and beliefs. Which is fine. Just keep in mind, the bible is the only book that will be used to judge all men. Notice what Rev 20:12 says about the period of time when all men, women, and children who lived and died without knowing Christ will be judged, "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books [of the bible] were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

The Greek word for "book" is "biblion" which is where the English word "Bible" is derived. God will use the the book of books, the Bible, to judge mankind!

Yes, at the End time all people were Judged by the Bible, Please read these brief explanations for how it was done, and then if any part of it is not clear, we will surely discuss more:



As to the meaning of ‘Dead’, ‘Alive’, ‘Resurrection’ and ‘Day of Judgment’ other meanings was intended from the teachings of Jesus.

For example, Jesus said: “Let the dead bury their dead.” Luke 9:60.

Reflect, had these souls been ‘quickened’ by the trumpet-call of Jesus, had they risen from the grave of error by the power of his love, the ‘judgment of death’ would certainly not have been pronounced against them.

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.”

Another meaning of “Resurrection” is the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause.

...as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. - Rom. 6:4

By “trumpet” is meant the trumpet-call of Messiah’s Revelation, which would be sounded in the heart of the universe to proclaim the Cause of God.

This trumpet-call has already given by Baha'u'llah for this age, after the End Time came already!.


When we accept the Manifestation of God, are "born again," i.e., we are raised from "the tomb of unbelief" to a life of faith and service.


The rapture, or translation, of the church, terms which are never actually used in the New Testament, are also references to the resurrections of unbelievers. I offer the following quote from the first epistle of the Apostle Paul to the Thessolonians. Commentary is included in brackets:


...we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope [There IS hope beyond the grave for those who sleep, i.e., who are dead.]. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [resurrection of the Cause of Christ], even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus [Christians, when they leave this world, will be allowed to draw close to the Presence, the Will, of God.]. For this we have to say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain [in this world] until the coming of the Lord Himself [the return of Christ] shall not precede those who have fallen asleep [died]. For the Lord [return of Christ] will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet [call] of God; and the dead in Christ [those Christians who have passed into the Kingdom of God Beyond - the next world] shall rise first [have the blessing of being the first to arise, from the Kingdom of God Beyond, and bow down to the returned Christ]. Then we who are alive and remain [still in this world] shall be caught up together with them [the great believers who have attained a high station in the Kingdom of God Beyond] in the clouds [while still in the physical body] to meet the Lord [the return of Christ] in the air [the Kingdom of God, including the Kingdom of God Beyond and the Kingdom of God Revealed], and thus we shall ever be with the Lord [in the everlasting Kingdom of God]. - I Thes. 4:13-17, New American Standard Version.

And what about the rest of the people who lived and died before Christ was even born. Are they doomed because they were born at the wrong time? Shouldn't they get a chance to know Him as we do today?

The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe--and not some physically remote or removed place.

Entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy. Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother."

"Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."

 

[james2ko]

The soul does not die; it endures everlastingly. When the human body dies, the soul is freed from ties with the physical body and the surrounding physical world and begins its progress through the spiritual world. Bahá'ís understand the spiritual world to be a timeless and placeless extension of our own universe--and not some physically remote or removed place.

Scripture says the exact opposite, Eze 18:20 "The soul who sins shall die....."

Entry into the next life has the potential to bring great joy. Bahá'u'lláh likened death to the process of birth. He explains: "The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother."

"Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved," Bahá'u'lláh wrote. "By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue can describe."

This whole thing is way too bazzaar and confusing to be of God. Anyway it was nice debating with you. I guess I'll see you when God straightens out this religous hodge podge we humans have perpetuated

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Scripture says the exact opposite, Eze 18:20 "The soul who sins shall die....."

This whole thing is way too bazzaar and confusing to be of God. Anyway it was nice debating with you. I guess I'll see you when God stratightens out this religous hodge podge we humans facilitated.

Well, the first part you read was not from God. It was just an explanation to answer your question regarding, what would happen to those who died at the time of Jesus. I guess you just read and decide too quickly. LOL

This is from God:

"Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live. " -- Baha'u'llah

So, I guess, choose your way!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"Say, O followers of the Son! Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness.

We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit, and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray. Do ye imagine that He seeketh His own interests, when He hath, at all times, been threatened by the swords of the enemies; or that He seeketh the vanities of the world, after He hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities? Be fair in your judgement and follow not the footsteps of the unjust.

Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: &#8216;Ye cannot bear it now.&#8217; And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.​

Though beset with countless afflictions, We summon the people unto God, the Lord of names. Say, strive ye to attain that which ye have been promised in the Books of God, and walk not in the way of the ignorant. My body hath endured imprisonment that ye may be released from the bondage of self. " --Baha'u'llah

 

[arthra]

Listen! I am telling you a mystery. We will not all die. But we will all be changed. That will happen in a flash, as quickly as you can wink an eye. It will happen when the last trumpet sounds. The trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever. And we will be changed. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

This prophecy mentions the trumpet sounding and the interesting thing about that is that the sound of trumpet is mentioned in the Qur'an as well..

Verily, the day of decision is an appointed time; and the day when the trumpet shall be blown, and ye shall come in troops, and the heavens shall be opened, and shall be all doors, and the mountains shall be moved, and shall be like a mirage!

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 78 - The Information)

Scriptures from early times make mention of the trumpet in association with and as symbolic of Revelation.

In the Pentateuch we read that:

'Moses went down from the Mount unto the people. . . And it came to pass. . .that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the Mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud. . .And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God and they stood at the nether part of the Mount. And Mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke. . .and the whole Mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered Him by a voice.

(KJV Exodus 19:14-19)

The prophet Isaiah proclaimed: '

All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth. . . when He bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.'

(KJV Isaiah 18:3)

Speaking from the Mount of Olives, Jesus declared:

'And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. . .'

(KJV Matthew 24:30-1)

In the Book of Revelation, St. John likened the voice of God to a trumpet:

'I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last..



From the Baha'i Writings:

The Trumpet hath been blown, and lo, all eyes have stared up with terror, and the hearts of all who are in the heavens and on the earth have trembled, except them whom the breath of the verses of God hath quickened, and who have detached themselves from all things.

~ Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 99

A Trumpet Blast is viewed in the Baha'i Writings as a Manifestation of God.

 

[Ganymede]

You folks make my head spin with all of this!

There is one thing that none of the Baha'is have mentioned so far, and that regarding the reference " coming in the clouds of heaven", this is also figurative. "Clouds" in this context are concepts that are spiritual, and therefore not always easy to interpret by ordinary human beings. It requires careful reflection and study to understand the word of God.

Baha'is also believe that we are not to interpret the word of God for one another with any claim on the exclusive truth. That is what is meant by the axiom "Individual investigation of truth". We each interpret the word of God for ourselves now, and no longer need the clergy to do this. So there really is no need to argue - that would go against our principles of Oneness and Harmony.