Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[InvestigateTruth]

I have been trying to listen to Bahai logic and reasoning with an open mind.
I showed earlier how easy dot connecting stars falling can be. Did you read it?



So if the Bahai interpretation of the stars falling is accepted as prophecy fulfilled then other Bahai scriptures should be accepted without questioning them?

Which other prophecy? You can look one at a time.

 

[Trailblazer]

So if the Bahai interpretation of the stars falling is accepted as prophecy fulfilled then other Bahai scriptures should be accepted without questioning them?

No, I don't think other Bahai scriptures should be accepted without questioning them. I think we need to look at al the prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, as well as the claims of Baha'u'llah and all the evidence that supports those claims.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[CG Didymus]

Bahais believe in Bahaullah, because He has shown signs of Divinity, and has fulfilled all prophecies in the scriptures of all religions. Whoever has become Bahai, is supposed to first investigate the claim of Bahaullah. But once he saw the evidences and proofs, and was convinced, then after that is supposed to just follow Bahaullah, Not, keep questioning Bahai scriptures.
This investigation must be done before becoming a Bahai. In Bahai faith no one is born a Bahai. But must first investigate the truth. Blind faith is not accepted.

For example, I as a Bahai, have done my investigation. I have asked my questions, and have asked for evidences already, and was convinced. Why should I question the authority of Baha'u'llah?

When is investigating and learning new things ever done? How many people that became Christians studied and questioned the Christian claims, beliefs, and interpretations? Some of them stand firm in their belief that the world is less than 10,000 years old, that Satan is real, then that thing about Jesus coming back to life, that people lived to be hundreds of years old and all the rest of their beliefs. Then they hear about the Baha'i Faith. Yet, for them, if the Baha'i Faith is true, they should re-investigate the truth. But, I know, Baha'is have the latest and greatest message, so what they believe is the absolute real truth and they should follow it without questioning. Unfortunately, Baha'is keep claiming that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all prophecies of all religions. I think it has become quite clear... there is no way to prove that. And if it can't be proven, then when does a person stop questioning and stop investigating?

 

[CG Didymus]

Brian2, that is most likely because you are not aware of what Baha'u'llah has offered on this topic.

I read those verses and can see the Glory of God is in them.

Regards Tony

Can you see why some Christians think this was Jesus telling them about what was going to happen to them on Pentecost?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

When is investigating and learning new things ever done? How many people that became Christians studied and questioned the Christian claims, beliefs, and interpretations? Some of them stand firm in their belief that the world is less than 10,000 years old, that Satan is real, then that thing about Jesus coming back to life, that people lived to be hundreds of years old and all the rest of their beliefs. Then they hear about the Baha'i Faith. Yet, for them, if the Baha'i Faith is true, they should re-investigate the truth. But, I know, Baha'is have the latest and greatest message, so what they believe is the absolute real truth and they should follow it without questioning. Unfortunately, Baha'is keep claiming that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all prophecies of all religions. I think it has become quite clear... there is no way to prove that. And if it can't be proven, then when does a person stop questioning and stop investigating?

Abdulbaha said A true belief cannot be through blind imitation and fanaticism. It must be through independent investigation of truth, through abandoning blind imitations and all kinds of prejudices.

 

[Trailblazer]

Unfortunately, Baha'is keep claiming that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all prophecies of all religions. I think it has become quite clear... there is no way to prove that. And if it can't be proven, then when does a person stop questioning and stop investigating?

No, there is no way to prove that, so the logical thing to do is stop using the prophecies to try to determine if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. Actually, the logical thing to do is to investigate what Baha'u'llah told us to investigate in support of His claims, and the Bible prophecies are not included in anything He enjoined us to investigate.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[InvestigateTruth]

When is investigating and learning new things ever done? How many people that became Christians studied and questioned the Christian claims, beliefs, and interpretations? Some of them stand firm in their belief that the world is less than 10,000 years old, that Satan is real, then that thing about Jesus coming back to life, that people lived to be hundreds of years old and all the rest of their beliefs. Then they hear about the Baha'i Faith. Yet, for them, if the Baha'i Faith is true, they should re-investigate the truth. But, I know, Baha'is have the latest and greatest message, so what they believe is the absolute real truth and they should follow it without questioning. Unfortunately, Baha'is keep claiming that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all prophecies of all religions. I think it has become quite clear... there is no way to prove that. And if it can't be proven, then when does a person stop questioning and stop investigating?

In my view it is possible to verify if prophecies "fit" with Bahai History.
But if you think to show they "fit" is not a proof, then so be it. To me is one proof.

An example is, in Hadithes it is said when Christ returns He lives forty (40) years. Bahaullah declared He is the Promised One in the year 1852, and He left this world in the year 1892. So, that is 40 years. So, all prophecies from all religions "fit" one way or another with Bahai faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you see why some Christians think this was Jesus telling them about what was going to happen to them on Pentecost?

Is that now important? Hands up which Christain, or Baha'i that thinks they are full of the Holy Spirit.

My hand is not up.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Hands up which Christain, or Baha'i that thinks they are full of the Holy Spirit.

I think you will see some Christians hands up for one simple reason -- that is what they have been taught to believe.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I understand that Blind Faith is your way to go. But that is not relevant to others. Everyone will not throw reason and study down the drain just because you say that.

Peace.

When one has found the truth, then there is no longer any need to search further. Learning doesn't stop, but searching for the Promised One ceases once He has been found.

For others, they are still on their journey, and whether they find their goal or not depends on them alone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think you will see some Christians hands up for one simple reason -- that is what they have been taught to believe.

I see that becomes our greatest test, that is, unlearning the bad habits.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Maybe because there is no contradiction of the biblical texts.

Nope. Maybe's and Maybe nots could be many. I see this same answer for everything, sometimes for even things that contradicts Bahaullah himself. Sometimes when a Bahai contradicts the Bahai writings itself, they still use the same phrase "I see no contradiction at all" like a standard plug and play solution. Same as "it alludes to" and "its just symbolic". Sometimes I have asked questions that are not considered by the Bahai's as symbolic but the Bahai's respond saying its symbolic because its like a universal response. Almost habitual.

Can you explain how anything in John 14,15,16 contradicts that Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of Truth?
Can you explain who "he" and "him" is referring to?
If it is the Holy Spirit, as Christians believe, how can it do all the things it says "he" will do in the following verses?
How does the Holy Spirit speak if not through a man?
Christians cannot answer these questions with any logical answer.

Of course this contradicts the Bible and Christianity because Jesus says that the Parakleetus cannot come unless he goes away. But the Holy Spirit was already there with Jesus, it even impregnates Mary. So those who say it is the Holy Spirit is just making excuses. Thats a whole different story.

 

[firedragon]

When one has found the truth, then there is no longer any need to search further. Learning doesn't stop, but searching for the Promised One ceases once He has been found.

For others, they are still on their journey, and whether they find their goal or not depends on them alone.

Preaching.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course this contradicts the Bible and Christianity because Jesus says that the Parakleetus cannot come unless he goes away. But the Holy Spirit was already there with Jesus,

Thanks! I like your logic, I never thought of that angle.... that's definitely a keeper!

I guess you are referring to this verse? Are there any others?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[firedragon]

We all make assumptions. You make assumptions in regards the likelihood that an elderly man could have written the Gospel of John or the literacy of the Apostle John.

No. You have not taken it in context, and you have not understood the point. Its not just an old man. Please read through properly.

I'm certainly open to the possibility that the Apostle John did not write and compile the Gospel of John alone and it may well have been a collaborative effort thus giving support to the Johannine community theory.

See, just read your own statement. There is a book that does not call itself to be written by a person called John. But you think "there is a possibility it is not written by John".

Just think. You find a book with the author himself never claiming his own name. But you say "there is a possibility it is not written by John" which is evident that first you assumed it was written by John without the author claiming it is a John, and then state "it is possible that he is not" as if the author claimed it is John, but still there is a possibility it is not written by him. At least if its a pseudonymous book with an actual name in it like some other books in the NT, it is valid to say "there is a possibility that Titus is not written by Paul".

Thats based on an assumption. But the assumption has become Gospel truth for you for so long that you are insistent on keeping the assumption because that is tradition, and you find it hard to let go.

If you read the response I gave you and your reply to it you would notice that you have not really responded to the points I have made but rather given some other points. That kind of response shows that one is not interested in the points made but is interested in holding on to tradition, that's all.

So I would avoid making assumptions based on age about a person's spiritual capacity or to write a book.

I think you should read again. You have not understood it.

Lets say the author of John was 95 when he was writing this book, he is narrating a story that happened 70 years ago like it happened yesterday, and speaks of someone writing things down 70 years ago, not when he was writing. Do you understand? So how do you assume he was writing about himself? Also, how do you think this book was written 70 years after Jesus? If he was an eye witness, do you think the book will be dated to the 2nd century at all? There is no way. Maybe you should understand how its done.

ANd I have given you some other points that you did not address.

When you say 'lame' arguments it simply makes you look biased and prejudiced, just as you harshly criticised Dibdin and my fellow Baha'is on this forum.

Maybe because you are prejudiced and bias you are not even able to consider the "lame argument" that I had spoken of. Because you are bias and reduced (Maybe), you did not understand that I was speaking of your fellow bahai Dibdin has used "other peoples lame arguments" which are not the real arguments that people use in determining authorship. I was not saying Dibdin was making lame arguments, but he was addressing some lame arguments, not the valid arguments that scholars make.

Try and reflect upon that last paragraph I wrote. Before you make assumptions about others, at least read the argument clearly, and if there are any clarifications just ask.

The church historian Eusebius (c. AD 300) records this John/Polycarp/Irenaeus connection in the same way

Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus (AD 189–198), refers to John’s association with the Gospel in his letter to Victor the Bishop of Rome

It is also confirmed by Clement of Alexandria (c. AD 200) and the Latin Muratorian Canon (AD 180–200).

The Apostle John forming part of the Johannine collaboration would address any concerns about a redacted text.

Just like you they made faith based associations.

Anyway, simply accusing someone as prejudiced and bias just because you did not understand the argument is a quick resort to ad hominem fallacy. Rather, try and be broadminded enough to understand what is said. If not lets say that to each other.

Also, you speak of defending your fellow Bahai's who have defied even the Bahai teachings by saying the Quran and the Bible are the same, and they are both Gods word, inerrant. This is tribalism to defend your kind no matter what. Rather than trying to be tribalistic in speaking of fellow Bahai's, address the point.

Have a good day.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks! I like your logic, I never thought of that angle.... that's definitely a keeper!

I guess you are referring to this verse? Are there any others?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Sis. I can't remember references, but of course.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: But that does not mean that the verses in John 14, John 15 and John 16 are referring to the Day of Pentecost. There is no logical reason to think that these verses in John that refer to the Holy Spirit are referring to the Day of Pentecost, but that came to be a Church teaching, so Christians just accepted it and believe it to this very day.

Brian2 said: The logical reason is that in John 14,15 and 16 we see that the Holy Spirit is promised by Jesus to His disciples of 2000 years ago and it came at Pentecost to them. Sounds reasonable to see Jesus promise to them as having been fulfilled at Pentecost. And of course since the Advocate and the Spirit of Truth which can be seen to be the Holy Spirit, are also promised by Jesus to His disciples, that would mean that the Advocate and Spirit of Truth came at Pentecost also.

firedragon just pointed something out to me that I had never realized, so I want to add that to what I posted before.

Trailblazer said: Can you explain how anything in John 14,15,16 contradicts that Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of Truth?
Can you explain who "he" and "him" is referring to?
If it is the Holy Spirit, as Christians believe, how can it do all the things it says "he" will do in the following verses?
How does the Holy Spirit speak if not through a man?
Christians cannot answer these questions with any logical answer.

firedragon said: Of course this contradicts the Bible and Christianity because Jesus says that the Parakleetus cannot come unless he goes away. But the Holy Spirit was already there with Jesus, it even impregnates Mary. So those who say it is the Holy Spirit is just making excuses. Thats a whole different story. #332

Trailblazer said: I guess you are referring to this verse? Are there any others?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

So, if Jesus had to go away before the Comforter (Advocate) could come, how could the Comforter have been sent at Pentecost? Jesus was with the disciples at Pentecost.

What does Jesus tell the disciples at Pentecost?

"It is expedient for you that I go away," Christ had said to His disciples; "for If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, ...Jun 23, 2012

The Acts of the Apostles/Pentecost - Wikisource, the free online library

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Which other prophecy? You can look one at a time.

I will show you part of what I believe:


Brass - Silver - Gold
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple
Moon - Star - Sun
Corn - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mount


So I think this verse is authentic:

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Revelation 6:13


I don't think it is a meteor shower.
We could discuss the mighty wind if you want to.


Or you could pick the next biblical prophecy that Baha'u'llah fulfilled. And I will take a look at it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I will show you part of what I believe:


Brass - Silver - Gold
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple
Moon - Star - Sun
Corn - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mount


So I think this verse is authentic:

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Revelation 6:13


I don't think it is a meteor shower.
We could discuss the mighty wind if you want to.


Or you could pick the next biblical prophecy that Baha'u'llah fulfilled. And I will take a look at it.

In our view Bahaullah fulfilled the prophecies of return of Christ, and the End Time prophecies in Hebrew and Christian Bibles. So, upto you. Pick whichever you want .

 

[firedragon]

An example is, in Hadithes it is said when Christ returns He lives forty (40) years. Bahaullah declared He is the Promised One in the year 1852, and He left this world in the year 1892. So, that is 40 years. So, all prophecies from all religions "fit" one way or another with Bahai faith.

The ahadith also say that as soon as Jesus returns, the dajjal will crumble and die. Then it says Jesus will climb the dajjal and cut his neck. It also says that he will kill the pig. Imam Malik says Jesus will tell the pigs to pass by in peace, but some other ahadith say that he will kill the pig.