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Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So, in my understanding it was a test. They were told Jesus was resurrected and goes to heaven and come back. Now, they must be able to pass from this barrier so they can recognize Baha'u'llah. Similarly, the Muslims were told Muhammad is the seal of Prophets. They thought it means no revelation after Muhammad. It is a test. They have to pass from this barrier.
The problems... people wrote the gospels and Paul and a few others added the rest of the NT. They were not the manifestation. When they wrote that Jesus had come back to life, did God tell them to write that? Yet, if it didn't physically happen, there would still be some people that were there and could say that "no" it didn't really happen. But that's not what it seems like happened. The writers say that the witnesses that were still alive could confirm that indeed Jesus did come back to life.

So the test... one test is to have the followers of Jesus believe in the "Word of God" the Bible as being literally true. That's a pretty hard test for some. But now you say the real test is just the opposite. The followers of Jesus were supposed to realize the resurrection and other things in the Bible were not meant to be literally true. The test was for them to realize that those things were only symbolic. And by being "spiritual" enough to know that, then they would have recognized Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Oh the games God plays.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
If you look at the days of creation in a Dispensation context, where each day represents the dawn of a new Day as in Manifestation arising, it makes a whole lot more sense.

This is from Abdul-Baha and He says just that.

What is intended by the creation of heaven and earth in six days is a spiritual creation and a divine day, as prior to the creation of this heaven and earth there were no days and nights.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)
And how many manifestations did we have since then and none of them happened to mention that until now? And it's the manifestations son that clears it up? Well we still have probably hundreds of creation stories from all the different religions of all the different people. What about them? I think it is much easier to believe that lots of ancient people made up stories about creation. They don't have to be true. They don't have to be symbolically true. But they were somewhat meaningful and probably believed to be true for those ancient people. And when it comes to making Biblical stories "symbolically" true, when does it end? Samson and his long hair? Elijah riding off into the sky on a fiery chariot? To me they are probably just religious myth of an ancient people.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The test was for them to realize that those things were only symbolic. And by being "spiritual" enough to know that, then they would have recognized Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Oh the games God plays.
I do not think it was God playing the games, but God is always the fall guy since He is not here to defend Himself. ;)
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Well done to
I do not think anyone will ever know why the resurrection stories were written to sound like true stories, but it makes absolutely no sense to me that they were intended to be symbolic, If Abdu'l-Baha can say what he believes the stories symbolize but that is just his personal opinion. We certainly cannot assume that the gospel writers were trying to convey what Abdu'l-Baha wrote in Some Answered Questions.

Susan, every thing recorded by Abdul'baha explains what Baha'u'llah offered and is scripture.

It is all explained in great detail.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well done to

Susan, every thing recorded by Abdul'baha explains what Baha'u'llah offered and is scripture.

It is all explained in great detail.

Regards Tony
You are free to believe whatever you want to but I only consider the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah to be scripture.
The Baha'i Faith is going to turn into the same hornet's nest as Christianity did.
Hopefully the next Messenger will straighten it out.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well done to


Susan, every thing recorded by Abdul'baha explains what Baha'u'llah offered and is scripture.

It is all explained in great detail.

Regards Tony
What is the station of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá?

He is, and should for all time be regarded, first and foremost, as the Center and Pivot of Bahá’u'lláh’s peerless and all-enfolding Covenant, His most exalted handork, the stainless Mirror of His light, the perfect Exemplar of His teachings, the unerring Interpreter of His Word, the embodiment of every Bahá’í ideal, the incarnation of every Bahá’í virtue, the Most Mighty Branch sprung from the Ancient Root, the Limb of the Law of God, the Being “round Whom all names revolve,” the Mainspring of the Oneness of Humanity, the Ensign of the Most Great Peace, the Moon of the Central Orb of this most holy Dispensation — styles and titles that are implicit and find their truest, their highest and fairest expression in the magic name ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. He is, above and beyond these appellations, the “Mystery of God” — an expression by which Bahá’u'lláh Himself has chosen to designate Him, and which, while it does not by any means justify us to assign to Him the station of Prophethood, indicates how in the person of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized.
Shoghi Effendi, The Dispensation of Bahá’u'lláh, paragraph 75

Though moving in a sphere of His own and holding a rank radically different from that of the Author and the Forerunner of the Bahá’í Revelation, He, by virtue of the station ordained for Him through the Covenant of Bahá’u'lláh, forms together with them what may be termed the Three Central Figures of a Faith that stands unapproached in the world’s spiritual history. He towers, in conjunction with them, above the destinies of this infant Faith of God from a level to which no individual or body ministering to its needs after Him, and for no less a period than a full thousand years, can ever hope to rise. To degrade His lofty rank by identifying His station with or by regarding it as roughly equivalent to, the position of those on whom the mantle of His authority has fallen would be an act of impiety as grave as the no less heretical belief that inclines to exalt Him to a state of absolute equality with either the central Figure or Forerunner of our Faith. For wide as is the gulf that separates ‘Abdu’l-Bahá from Him Who is the Source of an independent Revelation, it can never be regarded as commensurate with the greater distance that stands between Him Who is the Center of the Covenant and His ministers who are to carry on His work, whatever be their name, their rank, their functions or their future achievements. Let those who have known ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, who through their contact with His magnetic personality have come to cherish for Him so fervent an admiration, reflect, in the light of this statement, on the greatness of One Who is so far above Him in station.
Shoghi Effendi, The Dispensation of Bahá’u'lláh, paragraph 69
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
And how many manifestations did we have since then and none of them happened to mention that until now? And it's the manifestations son that clears it up? Well we still have probably hundreds of creation stories from all the different religions of all the different people. What about them? I think it is much easier to believe that lots of ancient people made up stories about creation. They don't have to be true. They don't have to be symbolically true. But they were somewhat meaningful and probably believed to be true for those ancient people. And when it comes to making Biblical stories "symbolically" true, when does it end? Samson and his long hair? Elijah riding off into the sky on a fiery chariot? To me they are probably just religious myth of an ancient people.

The Bible is a Book about spiritual occurrences and happenings written in a spiritual language so in a materialistic age sure we are going to have great difficulty understanding it. It is written in such an exalted language that so far only the Prophets and Their appointed Interpreters have been able to fathom its hidden mysteries.

In describing a passage of Revelation, Baha’u’llah says that:


“Yet, shouldst thou reflect upon these statements, thou wouldst find them to be of such surpassing eloquence and clarity as to mark the loftiest heights of utterance and the epitome of wisdom”

Gems of Divine Mysteries
Bahá’u’lláh
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Bible is a Book about spiritual occurrences and happenings written in a spiritual language so in a materialistic age sure we are going to have great difficulty understanding it. It is written in such an exalted language that so far only the Prophets and Their appointed Interpreters have been able to fathom its hidden mysteries.
That fits with what Abdu'l-Baha said:

From the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá

The disciples of Christ taught His Faith with the language of the Kingdom. That language conformeth to all languages, for it consisteth of celestial meanings and divine mysteries. For the one who becometh conversant with that language the realities and secrets of creation stand unveiled before him. Divine truths are common to all languages. The Holy Spirit, therefore, taught the disciples the language of the Kingdom, and they thus were able to converse with the people of all nations. Whenever they spoke to those of other nations of the world, it was as if they conversed in their tongues. The well-known and outstanding languages of the world number about a thousand. It was necessary for the disciples to have written the Gospels in at least one of the languages of other nations. Thus, as it is known, the Gospels were written only in Hebrew and Greek, and not even in the language of the Romans, although it was at the time the official language. As the disciples were not well-versed in it, the Gospels were not written in that language.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Abdul-Bahá’s interpretations of any scripture, to Baha’is is authoritative.

The interpretation of biblical prophecies has long been the subject of controversy and speculation among religious scholars. As Bahá'ís, we know that we must turn to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi for authoritative guidance in these matters. (17 January 1978 to an individual believer) House of Justice
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The problems... people wrote the gospels and Paul and a few others added the rest of the NT. They were not the manifestation. When they wrote that Jesus had come back to life, did God tell them to write that? Yet, if it didn't physically happen, there would still be some people that were there and could say that "no" it didn't really happen. But that's not what it seems like happened. The writers say that the witnesses that were still alive could confirm that indeed Jesus did come back to life.

So the test... one test is to have the followers of Jesus believe in the "Word of God" the Bible as being literally true. That's a pretty hard test for some. But now you say the real test is just the opposite. The followers of Jesus were supposed to realize the resurrection and other things in the Bible were not meant to be literally true. The test was for them to realize that those things were only symbolic. And by being "spiritual" enough to know that, then they would have recognized Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Oh the games God plays.
Yes.

And my take is, Jesus had told the disciples before crucifixion, what and how to write the Gospels. Jesus had told them to write these symbolic stories. Then they memorized it, and eventually written.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You are free to believe whatever you want to but I only consider the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah to be scripture.
The Baha'i Faith is going to turn into the same hornet's nest as Christianity did.
Hopefully the next Messenger will straighten it out.

Hopefully we will sort it out within our own selves.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible is a Book about spiritual occurrences and happenings written in a spiritual language so in a materialistic age sure we are going to have great difficulty understanding it. It is written in such an exalted language that so far only the Prophets and Their appointed Interpreters have been able to fathom its hidden mysteries.

In describing a passage of Revelation, Baha’u’llah says that:


“Yet, shouldst thou reflect upon these statements, thou wouldst find them to be of such surpassing eloquence and clarity as to mark the loftiest heights of utterance and the epitome of wisdom”

Gems of Divine Mysteries
Bahá’u’lláh
What words of the Bible are written by a manifestation?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It is more recent, was revealed in the lifetime of Muhammad not after His passing as with Jesus. Also the Quran was one revelation to one Prophet not many chapters written by different authors as was the Bible, some being ‘unknown authors’.

That sounds like a recipe for dismissing anything the Bible might say if it does not agree with what you believe.
Do you think that one of the fruits of a false prophet (as in Matt 7:15-20) would be seen by Jesus as the production of at attitude in his disciples that the Bible is untrustworthy? Jesus certainly seemed to believe what was in the Hebrew scriptures.

How do you defend God commanding the killing of every man, woman, child, infant in 1 Samuel, 15:3?
Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.’”

The Quran on the other hand, forbids the killing of infants and innocents.

Records that far back, especially in light of the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, how authentic can they be?

The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is also an old scripture, older than 1Samuel 15:3.
Whatever God told the Israelites to do is what they were to do. If they did not do it then it was wrong in God's eyes, and this is because God had and has His reasons for what He does and commands and they and we should trust Him to know what He is doing.
1Samuel 15:1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.

This is the reason God gives for what He commanded and as much as we might think that was over the top, God is God, not us. As it happened Saul did not do a thorough job as he was commanded and the Amalekites continued to be a hostile problem for Israel.
Do you think that Jesus will be wrong for doing what the verse you quoted (Rev 19:15) says that the Messiah will do when He returns. Notice btw that Baha'u'llah did not do this.
Rev 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Maybe it’s not us who misunderstand the Book. Remember in the days of Jesus, those who claimed knowledge of the Torah put Jesus to death. They entirely misunderstood the prophecies didn’t they, and condemned to death the very Messiah they had been praying day and night to come?

These things have once again been repeated, I believe, in this day, with those who claim to know the Book, the very first to condemn Baha’u’llah of falsehood, as was in the days of Jesus.

This is not a good argument however since all it is saying is "The Jews did it so the Christians have done it also"
It was prophesied in the Hebrew scriptures that the Jews would reject the Messiah. Is that prophesied about the Christians and the return of Jesus? Not that I can see, do you see it? Actually the return of Jesus is presented as a world shattering event which nobody could miss and that Christians are not to follow people who come and say they are the Christ.
Luke 17:22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Notice that Jesus in verse 25 identifies Himself as the Son of Man who will return.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Not really. How many people accepted Jesus who couldn’t read, write or even count? Were they wrong?

Jesus said : “The pure in heart shall see God” not the knowledgeable. The so called ‘knowledgeable’ Annas and Caiphas had Him put to death, while a simple fisherman accepted Him. A pure heart is more to God than a scripture degree.

Their knowledge made them proud and blinded their eyes to the truth of Christ.

Nevertheless if Jesus had not fulfilled the prophecies about Him then the whole thing would have fallen in a heap by now.
You can read and write and count so you should be checking out the prophecies in the Bible that Baha'u'llah claims to have fulfilled. Maybe you think that the heart of Baha'is is more pure than the heart of people who reject him and so there is no need for a sound scriptural base for Baha'u'llah.
Knowledge can lead to pride but spiritual pride can blind just as easily.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Does not Christ live today in the hearts and minds? Did they really kill Him?

Yes they really killed Him and He rose from the dead and Islam denies the gospel by rejecting the death of Jesus and Baha'i gets rid of the gospel (not that Baha'u'llah says what the true gospel is) for Baha'is by just teaching that the dispensation of Jesus is finished.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That sounds like a recipe for dismissing anything the Bible might say if it does not agree with what you believe.
Do you think that one of the fruits of a false prophet (as in Matt 7:15-20) would be seen by Jesus as the production of at attitude in his disciples that the Bible is untrustworthy? Jesus certainly seemed to believe what was in the Hebrew scriptures.



The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is also an old scripture, older than 1Samuel 15:3.
Whatever God told the Israelites to do is what they were to do. If they did not do it then it was wrong in God's eyes, and this is because God had and has His reasons for what He does and commands and they and we should trust Him to know what He is doing.
1Samuel 15:1 Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.

This is the reason God gives for what He commanded and as much as we might think that was over the top, God is God, not us. As it happened Saul did not do a thorough job as he was commanded and the Amalekites continued to be a hostile problem for Israel.
Do you think that Jesus will be wrong for doing what the verse you quoted (Rev 19:15) says that the Messiah will do when He returns. Notice btw that Baha'u'llah did not do this.
Rev 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.


When Christ appeared the first time, they used scriptures to accuse Him of being an imposter.


In the Bible the tongue has been likened to the sword.

And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; (Isaiah 49:2)
Baha’u’llah definitely used Words as a sharp sword against the unjust kings and rulers in His letters to them.

Another passage is ‘let the dead bury the dead’. Taken literally it is illogical. Newer translations by Christians say ‘let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead’. Over time, people are changing their understanding of the Bible.
 
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