It’s like with the Jews. They said they were waiting for the Messiah, but were they really? All they were interested in was opposing Him, and ended up putting Him to death.
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Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?
- Thread starter firedragon
- Start date
It’s like with the Jews. They said they were waiting for the Messiah, but were they really? All they were interested in was opposing Him, and ended up putting Him to death.
We believe the Dispensation. Of Jesus is not finished but fulfilled.
He made promises to His followers and humanity which we believe He kept.
Yes they killed Jesus body but not His Spirit which is alive to this day. Islam is denying that the spirit of Jesus was killed.
Here is what our official position on this topic is, the same as yourself basically.
“Regarding your question relative to Surih 4, 156 of the ‘Qur’an’ in which Muhammad says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, the Christ, but one like Him; what is meant by this passage is that although the Jews succeeded in destroying the physical body of Jesus, yet they were impotent to destroy the divine reality in Him.” (Shoghi Effendi)
Brian2
Veteran Member
If the gospel was correct then Jesus and the Father live in Christians to teach them how to love (amongst other things). No new message can beat the gospel message, the work of Jesus, the gospel which is called the "eternal gospel" and the "everlasting covenant".
Rev14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.
Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with every good thing to do His will.
Jesus said I have much more to say unto you and the Christ Spirit of Truth would. Guide us unto all Truth.
This covenant is what was taught in the Hebrew scriptures to be coming.
Ezek 37:26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.
Baha'i denies these scriptures because of the words of someone who fits the description of a false Christ in the Bible. Baha'i teaches that the dispensation of Jesus is over, the gospel finished when a new Messenger came, it is invalid now.
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.
Jesus spoke these words to His disciples and told them that the Spirit of truth would guide them into all truth. The Spirit of Truth did actually come a few weeks later to those disciples to lead them into all truth.
Brian2
Veteran Member
If you read my other posts you might see some of these things.
I will give you this passage which Baha'i says is false and which refutes and contradicts the Baha'i view since Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus.
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Bahai's believe Bahaullah is that "Spirit of Truth".
Brian2
Veteran Member
It is not the Trinity that prevents a Christian from accepting Baha'u'llah, at least not for me, it is that he not only does not fulfil prophecies about the return of Jesus, he actually denies the truth of these prophecies. The person who claims to be the return of Christ says in effect "Those prophecies about the return of Christ do not mean what they say, trust me, I'm the return of Christ, I should know", and people who have been mesmerised by Baha'u'llah nod their head.
I'll give you this example, which I probably have before:
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Baha'is I have spoken to deny this in all it's parts, which I should not have to elaborate on, it is quite easy to understand. Baha'is I have spoken to want to even reverse the prophecy (which is also a warning against false Christs). Baha'i says "a different person, not Jesus, will come, not come back because he has not been to earth before, and will do it in a different way than the way the disciples of Jesus saw him go to heaven,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which probably did not happen anyway, and Jesus certainly did not ascend bodily into heaven".
God is One God even if He is a trinity. It is wrong to say that the trinity teaches that there are 3 Gods. That is an error that many who are against the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit teach, and it seems Muhammad also thought that.
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That verse with the Spirit of Truth has around nine personal pronouns attached to it. It’s speaking about a He. It says so multiple times and that this He can speak and can hear.
Nothing is more clear that this refers to a Person.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
And Baha’u’llah, in a Tablet to the Christians says:
Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause.
Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.
Baha’u’llah openly wrote to the Christians announcing It.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 9-17
I think this is a good discussion and I very much appreciate that we are being put to task and asked the hard questions. But as I have said before to firedragon, it means more to me to be on good terms than winning an argument. Same with Brian too. I like your questions but know that I respect you and don’t want to sacrifice goodwill for the sake of winning some argument.
You have different views and that’s great. And that’s much respected. Our religion doesn’t have clergy or priests so we have to do the research ourselves and that can be difficult.
So thanks for being so patient. We have a lot to learn and already I am learning a lot from you guys.
You have different views and that’s great. And that’s much respected. Our religion doesn’t have clergy or priests so we have to do the research ourselves and that can be difficult.
So thanks for being so patient. We have a lot to learn and already I am learning a lot from you guys.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh yes. I know.
That is why I find it hypocritical when Bahai's try to defend the Bible with the false apologetic "we only accept scholars who are not critical of Christianity", because Bahaullah and all the writers are absolutely critical of Christianity.
Nevertheless. Cheers.
Brian2
Veteran Member
From Genesis on the Bible tells us humans are all brothers and sisters even if we have disagreements on many things.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The name is actually Jesus.
Acts 4:11 Jesus is
“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Jesus new name is written on those who endure to the end and have already overcome. It is nothing to do with accepting someone who comes and claims to be the return of Christ with a new name.
Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Jesus said that His words will never pass away and Baha'i denies much of what He said and makes much of it obsolete because of the arrival of a new Messenger, and makes the whole work of salvation that Jesus accomplished on the cross obsolete because a so called 'new message' has come, which is not a new message really.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Fulfilled, finished, same thing. The gospel is no longer applicable to anyone even when the New Testament tells us it is an eternal gospel and that the covenant He made is an everlasting covenant. The covenant is not going to be replaced and the gospel does not stop applying to anyone who puts faith in Jesus.
Yes the soul does not die when the body is killed (Matt 10:28) That applies to all of us. Also Jesus body was resurrected and not left to rot in the grave. Baha'is deny the story because you believe Baha'u'llah. You may not want to be but you have become anti Christ (as in anti Jesus) and His everlasting Gospel.
You listen to Baha'u'llah, Abdul and Effendi say how wonderful the Bible is and you know that what they are really doing is saying most of it is wrong and are changing the whole Biblical message about the ONE Messiah into something completely different and then saying that the gospel message no longer is applicable to anyone.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes I should stop now too really. Maybe we will speak again and say the same things.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes, and the Bible says that Jesus promised the Spirit of Truth to His disciples of 2000 years ago to live with them and be in them.
John 14:15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
The scriptures below show that the Holy Spirit and Advocate and Spirit of Truth are the same and was promised to Jesus disciples of 2000 years ago. The story in Acts 2 shows that they received the Holy Spirit, Advocate, Spirit of Truth at that time.
John 14:25 All this I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
The prophecy has nothing to do with someone else coming in the future. It is Jesus who comes in the future in person.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
Acts 1:11...............This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
Muhammad does a similar thing with the prophecy of Jesus to send the Holy Spirit, Advocate, Spirit of Truth but does not say that he is the return of Christ.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Then you agree with Christianity that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person and not an it, and can speak and hear etc.
It is plain that Baha'u'llah has not glorified the Son or exalted His cause. Baha'u'llah pretends to glorify the Son while only exalting himself and standing on the cause of the Son to save people from death and bring them into eternal life, and saying this cause is ended.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah declares what the Bible denies.
Why would the return of Jesus have to write to anyone to say "Hay fellas, I'm here, I'm the Spirit of Truth, the return of Christ".
Luke 17:23 People will tell you, ‘Look, there He is! or ‘Look, here He is! Do not go out or chase after them. 24 For just as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other, so will be the Son of Man in His day.…
Baha'u'llah was declaring to them that really he was a false Christ. The Christians knew the scriptures and were waiting for the real Christ, Jesus, to come as He promised.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I never win an argument, that's how it goes on the forums. I try to keep peace with everyone but it is not always possible.
I'm an Ozzie male about the same age as you so who knows we may bump into each other in this small country or ours and I wouldn't want to be on bad terms with you.