Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

[Dawnofhope]

I still do not think it is necessary to acquire a deep understanding of the religions of the past. Hopefully we can agree to disagree about this.

The most important part of being a Baha'i is our personal journey with Baha'u'llah. It is not for either of us to tell the other what to do. So of course we can agree to disagree.

That is something a Baha’i can do if they want to but not everyone wants to or has the time. Why should Baha’is be the only ones who understand all religions whereas all the others only understand their own religion?

We live in different countries and our social spaces in regards who we talk to are different. Christianity is still the largest religion so I always find it helpful if I can find common ground in any interfaith discussion. Much more important is having an attitude of humility and respect for others.

I still have a deficit of knowledge of the Baha’i Faith and given the world situation that is a much higher priority to learn. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah has abrogated unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it. History is behind us, the old world order is crumbling, and the New World Order is rising in its stead.

I haven't met a Baha'i who doesn't have a deficit of knowledge about the Baha'i Faith. I have many.

Where to start?

I recently came across this gem from Shoghi Efendi:

"Shoghi Effendi hopes that you will exert all your effort to deepen your knowledge of the literature of the Movement, until you become fully acquainted with its spirit and tenets. Unless you do obtain such a firm hold you will never be able to teach others and render real service to the promulgation of the Faith. Of special importance is the Book of the Íqán which explains the attitude of the Cause towards the prophets of God and their mission in the history of society. Besides this there is Some Answered Questions of the Master and The Dawn-Breakers of Nabíl. Every Bahá'í should master these books and be able to explain their contents to others. Besides their importance, they are interesting and most absorbing."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 9, 1932, in Importance of Deepening our Knowledge and Understanding of the Faith, no. 102 and in Lights of Guidance, no. 1931)

Thanks for the quotes about the importance of studying the Bible, but the context was people who wanted to study the Bible, and he was addressing people who are interested in the Bible. Of course Abdu’l-Baha is not going to discourage people who are interested in studying the Bible, but I never considered knowing the Bible a requirement for being a Baha’i. Don’t we have enough requirements already?

It is true that Abdu'l-Baha was encouraging those who were interested. He also said little by little day by day, so we need to prioritise.

Note that the quote says “unqualified acceptance by them all of the divine origin of both Islám and Christianity, of the Prophetic functions of both Muhammad and Jesus Christ. But people hardly ever talk about Muhammad, and if they do it is derogatory. I give you a lot of credit for starting the threads about Muhammad and Islam but it sure did not seem like either one is accepted by many people. Was the mission of Muhammad so much less important than the mission of Jesus?

It was a huge step for me personally to start threads about Islam. As you will appreciate when we start threads it is usually ourselves that learn the most.

It has taken me a long time to start learning about Islam.

What did the Guardian say?

On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'
- Lights of Guidance, #1903.

I have always wondered about that quote from Shoghi Effendi. What about the divine origin of Judaism? Would there even be a Christianity if the Prophets in the OT had not come and prepared the way for Jesus and His mission?

There are much fewer Jews than Christians and Muslims. I stick with the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) and remember the advice not to directly teach Jews in Israel. Besides much of Judaism is there in the Bible anyhow.

I guess I am just tired of Christianity taking center stage. I understand that is the way it is in the Western world but as Baha’is we are not “Westerners;” we are world citizens.

That's why its good to extend into other religions such as Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism.

Please note that 22% of the world population are Muslims and 33% are Christians, but by the year 2060 there will be more Muslims than Christians, and that trend will continue into the future. Don’t you think it is more important for Baha’is to understand Islam and the Qur’an? I for one am a lot more interested in the Qur’an than the Bible. Then again, I have always been a bit if a rebel.

I think we need to know both really well. I generally talk to more Christians about the faith than Muslims.

When I became a Baha’i, I was under the impression that the Baha’i Faith was a new religion that stands alone and on its own merit. Sure, there was history leading up to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, but the Qur’an is the most recent history, so why isn’t Abdu’l-Baha telling us to study the Qur’an? I admit it, I have a feeling of antagonism towards the Bible and Christianity because of all the harm they have done to so many people and because of the interactions I have had with Christians over the years.

Much of what we read of Abdu'l-Baha is about his contact with Westerners, most of whom came froma Christian background. That's why there is so much of 'Some Answered Qustions' dedicated to Christian topics.

I think we should be able to teach others about Islam and dispel their fears.

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'
- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Do we have a new Revelation from God or not? If we do, I do not understand why we have to live in the past. But I guess some people have free time so they have time to read history. I don’t have that luxury. I do not even have time to read the Baha’i Writings. Then again, all people have very different life circumstances.

If you learn about another religion, whether Islam or Christianity, your knowledge of the Baha'i Faith will accelerate IMHO.

Do you have any quotes from Baha’u’llah that say we should study the Bible? I do have a problem with considering what Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi or the UHJ say as equivalent to Baha’u’llah, because they are not infallible. Moreover, these are suggestions, not commandments.

As Jesus taught an almost exclusively Jewish audience, so too did Baha'u'llah teach mostly Muslims. Consider the extensive references to the Holy Qur'an in the Kitab-i-Iqan. He was explaining to one of the Uncles of the Bab the progressive and unifying themes within religion. He needed to heavily reference the Quran and the traditions within Islam to outline the cebtral themes. Even this book has important references to the Bible as you know.

Thanks for the quotes, but I am very familiar with all of those. However, I am not going along with the idea that Paul did not corrupt the Gospel of Christ just because it says that in the “authoritative” Baha’i Writings or because the UHJ said it. I have a mind and I plan to use it, not just follow blindly. All one has to do is read what George Townshend wrote to know that the Church completely changed the gospel message, and it was because of Paul. They would not have been able to do what they did without what Paul wrote because they would not have a leg to stand on. This is confirmed by another author I am reading, Udo Schaefer, and he cites a lot of references. I plan to post a new thread on that as soon as I have time to type it up.

Abdu'l-Baha's and Shoghi Effendi's interpretations and elucidations are authoritative. George Townsend and Udo Schaefer are not.

Here's the thread I've just posted:

Did Paul champion the Cause of Christ or corrupt it?

Who am I to argue with you? Obviously you know the Bible and I don’t. The HUGE problem is that the Bible can be interpreted to mean whatever you want it to mean, which means that there is no way anyone can ever really know what it means. However, I am not a blundering idiot. I can see what happened to Christianity and some of it happened because of Paul. Anyone who looks at this objectively can see it. I have learned a lot from atheists who were formerly Christians who have no dog in this fight.

You are a very smart person, I know. I'm a blundering idiot, who knows little but that doesn't deter me lol.

Atheists absolutely have a dog in the fight. It completely suits their agenda to see the religion they have abandoned as being corrupted by Paul, whereas in reality they have simply lost their faith. Its blaming the religion and take no responsibility our spiritual well being.

Let me ask you a few simple questions. Did Jesus say He rose bodily from the grave or did someone else write that? Did Jesus say He ascended into the sky bodily and will return as He ascended or did someone else write that? That is in Acts 1:10-11, courtesy of Paul, and I know it by heart because I have discussed it with Christians for years, over and over again. Those two verses have led Christians astray for thousands of years and made it absolutely impossible for them to EVER recognize Baha’u’llah as the return of Christ. Did Jesus ever say that we had original sin and that He sacrificed Himself so we could be saved from original sin? Did Jesus ever say that He (the same Jesus) would return to earth and rule as a King? Did Jesus ever say that bodies would rise from graves when Jesus returns? Much of this comes from the literal interpretation of Adam and Eve and that was put together with what Paul wrote in Cor. and Thess. These false doctrines could not have been fabricated just by using the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Acts of the Apostles 1:10-11 was thought to be written by Luke, a companion of Paul. Modern biblical scholarship has thrown that question wide open. The problem is the discrephencies with historic details compared to the actual Pauline Epistles. But consider the style of writing in that chapter. Its not telling a story but providing an allegorical narrative. It is myth interwoven with the story itself. The embellishments did start with Paul as he was the first to mention the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:4-9. It was part of adapting the Christian narrative to a Greco-Roman audience. Of course Paul never saw the resurrectd Christ. It wasn't until about 3 - 4 years after Christ's ascension that Paul had a blinding vision on the road to Damascus in Acts of the Apostles 9:1-4. That was Paul's resurrection experience along with 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. Paul was a mystic and his stories though not literally true are to convey spiritual meaning just as Christ did with the parables. Consider the tue meaning of the Body of Christ meaning the church.

How is the church the Body of Christ?

Now consider Abdu'l-Baha's explanation

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 103-105

Now consider the significance Baha'u'llah places on the resurrection:

"...by `Resurrection' is meant the rise of the Manifestation to proclaim His Cause ..." (Kitab-i-Iqan, p.170).

I know that quote from the Kitab-i-Iqan by heart. Note that it says -- until the rise of the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation -- which means that Christians should have recognized Muhammad rather than clinging to the Bible.

That's a very literal interpretation. I think its much more complicated than that. Its getting late here so will need to sleep. Thanks for your very thorough and considered response.

 

[paarsurrey]

It is easy to know. Bahai Faith is established based on the writings of Bahaullah. All we need to do is, to compare it. It is like building a boat with exact sizes, shape, material. Bahaullah defined the design of the boat. Now we know what boat is the boat of Bahaullah from its specifications.

"All we need to do is, to compare it." Unquote.

I am doing exactly that.
I understand that Baha'ullah wrote over 100 volumes of Writings.
Can you please inform me the names of all those 100 volumes of Writings, and the language these were written by Bahaullah and the count of words of each book, to enable me to compare with Quran given to Muhammad by G-d, as I believe.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

We live in different countries and our social spaces in regards who we talk to are different. Christianity is still the largest religion so I always find it helpful if I can find common ground in any interfaith discussion. Much more important is having an attitude of humility and respect for others.

Christianity is still the largest religion in the United States where I live, by a very wide margin. I think the percentage is abut 75%, although that has declined in recent years, as many people are dropping out of Christianity and becoming atheists or agnostics.

There is an Interfaith Council in our area and the Baha’is have interfaith discussions. Most of the attendees are Christians. I agree that having an attitude of humility and respect for others is most important. I try to have respect for Christians but it is difficult when they have an attitude of superiority, being the only chosen ones, and saying that everyone else is going to hell. I have no respect for that so it is best I just do not converse with those people... live and learn. That is not to say I will never get in a debate with a Christian, but anymore I am selective and I play it by ear. If I see something I feel needs to be addressed I will say something.

I haven't met a Baha'i who doesn't have a deficit of knowledge about the Baha'i Faith. I have many.

Where to start?

I recently came across this gem from Shoghi Efendi:

"Shoghi Effendi hopes that you will exert all your effort to deepen your knowledge of the literature of the Movement, until you become fully acquainted with its spirit and tenets. Unless you do obtain such a firm hold you will never be able to teach others and render real service to the promulgation of the Faith. Of special importance is the Book of the Íqán which explains the attitude of the Cause towards the prophets of God and their mission in the history of society. Besides this there is Some Answered Questions of the Master and The Dawn-Breakers of Nabíl.Every Bahá'í should master these books and be able to explain their contents to others. Besides their importance, they are interesting and most absorbing."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, February 9, 1932, in Importance of Deepening our Knowledge and Understanding of the Faith, no. 102 and in Lights of Guidance, no. 1931)

Thanks for that quote. I have read the Iqan and Some Answered Questions several times and refer to them and quote them often. I really do need to read The Dawn-Breakers and God Passes By, since Baha’i history is my weak area.

It was a huge step for me personally to start threads about Islam. As you will appreciate when we start threads it is usually ourselves that learn the most.

It has taken me a long time to start learning about Islam.

What did the Guardian say?

On the importance of the study of Islam to Bahá'ís, the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, said that for 'a proper and sound understanding of the Cause' its study was 'absolutely indispensable.'
- Lights of Guidance, #1903.

For certain, I can agree with you on that. Although the analogy is not perfect, the importance of Baha’is knowing Islam and the Qur’an is akin to the importance of Christians knowing the Old Testament.

There are much fewer Jews than Christians and Muslims. I stick with the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) and remember the advice not to directly teach Jews in Israel. Besides much of Judaism is there in the Bible anyhow.

I have conversed with a few Jewish posters on forums and I have met with the same opposition from Jews as I get from Christians. They have a set idea of what the Messiah will be like and what He will do, so they will not accept Baha’u’llah as the Messiah, since He did not do exactly what they think the Tanakh says, according to their narrow interpretation. In that way it is similar to Christians who have set ideas about how the return of Jesus will take place and what will happen after that.

That's why its good to extend into other religions such as Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism.

I am fascinated by Buddhism and Hinduism but the problem I see with learning about those religions from Buddhists and Hindus is that we are not really learning what the Prophets revealed but rather what Buddhists and Hindus have come to believe. After thousands of years, the meanings of the original scriptures has been changed and misunderstood, as Abdul-Baha duly noted. If that were not the case we would not have so many different sects of Buddhism and Hinduism, all with different beliefs. Maybe what we need to study is the Sutras and the Gita and then talk to the followers. I tried reading the Sutras once but I did not get far. It is difficult to understand.

I think we need to know both really well. I generally talk to more Christians about the faith than Muslims.

So it makes sense that you are proficient in Christianity. I have only talked to a few Muslims online because there are not many Muslims in the United States and not many in our area. There are a lot more Buddhists. There are at least two very large Buddhist centers in our area and many smaller ones.

Much of what we read of Abdu'l-Baha is about his contact with Westerners, most of whom came from a Christian background. That's why there is so much of 'Some Answered Questions' dedicated to Christian topics.

I think we should be able to teach others about Islam and dispel their fears.

'There is so [much] misunderstanding about Islam in the West in general that you have to dispel. Your task is rather difficult and requires a good deal of erudition. Your chief task is to acquaint the friends with the pure teaching of the Prophet [Muhammad] as recorded in the Qur'án, and then to point out how these teachings have, throughout succeeding ages, influenced[,] nay[,] guided the course of human development. In other words you have to show the position and significance of Islam in the history of civilization.'
- Shoghi Effendi, (the Guardian of the Baha'i Faith). Lights of Guidance, New Delhi: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 2nd rev. and enlarged edition, 1988, #1664.

I agree it is very important to know Islam and the Qur’an. Even if we do not talk to Muslims, most people who research the Baha’i Faith even superficially have the impression that it grew out of Islam and many more people believe it is a sect of Islam. I am always having to explain that the Baha’i Faith is an independent religion that grew out of Islam just as Christianity grew out of Judaism and the Bab and Baha’u’llah were Muslims just as Jesus was a Jew. In a sense Jesus was a revolutionary who broke with traditional Judaism just as the Bab and Baha’u’llah were revolutionaries who broke with traditional Islam.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you learn about another religion, whether Islam or Christianity, your knowledge of the Baha'i
Faith will accelerate IMHO.

I can see your point, especially regarding Islam.

As Jesus taught an almost exclusively Jewish audience, so too did Baha'u'llah teach mostly Muslims. Consider the extensive references to the Holy Qur'an in the Kitab-i-Iqan. He was explaining to one of the Uncles of the Bab the progressive and unifying themes within religion. He needed to heavily reference the Quran and the traditions within Islam to outline the central themes. Even this book has important references to the Bible as you know.

Compared to references to the Qur’an the Iqan has few references to the Bible. Of course that makes sense if it was addressed to a Muslim.

Abdu'l-Baha's and Shoghi Effendi's interpretations and elucidations are authoritative. George Townsend and Udo Schaefer are not.

That does not mean that George Townshend and Udo Schaefer are not right. The authoritative writings are not very detailed. Sure, the faith of Paul is to be admired but that does not mean he did not change the course of Christianity from what Jesus would have wanted it to be and Paul turned the gospel message into a message about salvation rather than the actual teachings of Jesus, which stressed good works.

Here's the thread I've just posted:

Did Paul champion the Cause of Christ or corrupt it?

I look forward to learning something from that thread, and if I can get my husband to type up what Udo Schaefer said about Paul, I will post it there.

You are a very smart person, I know. I'm a blundering idiot, who knows little but that doesn't deter me lol.

Atheists absolutely have a dog in the fight. It completely suits their agenda to see the religion they have abandoned as being corrupted by Paul, whereas in reality they have simply lost their faith. Its blaming the religion and take no responsibility our spiritual well being.

I am sure you are smart as you would not have gotten through medical school if you weren’t. I could not even get through science courses but I excelled in psychology. I am not that knowledgeable about religions other than Baha’i as you are, but you have been on this forum a lot longer than I have and you have made it a point to learn. My interest is more in human interactions and how people think and why, especially regarding God and Messengers, since I have the background in psychology.

I can agree about the atheists having a dog in the fight. It makes sense that blaming something/someone else gets them off the hook and the Bible has been the target. I have conversed many atheists and they use the Bible as a reason/excuse not to believe in God or any scriptures that were revealed after the Bible.

Acts of the Apostles 1:10-11 was thought to be written by Luke, a companion of Paul. Modern biblical scholarship has thrown that question wide open. The problem is the discrepancies with historic details compared to the actual Pauline Epistles. But consider the style of writing in that chapter. Its not telling a story but providing an allegorical narrative. It is myth interwoven with the story itself. The embellishments did start with Paul as he was the first to mention the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:4-9. It was part of adapting the Christian narrative to a Greco-Roman audience. Of course Paul never saw the resurrectd Christ. It wasn't until about 3 - 4 years after Christ's ascension that Paul had a blinding vision on the road to Damascus in Acts of the Apostles 9:1-4. That was Paul's resurrection experience along with 2 Corinthians 12:1-4. Paul was a mystic and his stories though not literally true are to convey spiritual meaning just as Christ did with the parables. Consider the true meaning of the Body of Christ meaning the church.

Thanks. That gives me a little context.

How is the church the Body of Christ?

Now consider Abdu'l-Baha's explanation

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 103-105

Now consider the significance Baha'u'llah places on the resurrection:

"...by `Resurrection' is meant the rise of the Manifestation to proclaim His Cause ..." (Kitab-i-Iqan, p.170).

Yes I know, there are big differences. Obviously Christianity sees the resurrection completely differently than the Baha’i Faith.

That's a very literal interpretation. I think its much more complicated than that. Its getting late here so will need to sleep. Thanks for your very thorough and considered response.

Yes, I am sure it is more complicated than that and Baha’u’llah did not actually say that although He implied it. The point of the passage was not about that though; it was about whether the Bible had been corrupted, as some Muslims claim.

 

[paarsurrey]

I can see your point, especially regarding Islam.

Compared to references to the Qur’an the Iqan has few references to the Bible. Of course that makes sense if it was addressed to a Muslim.

That does not mean that George Townshend and Udo Schaefer are not right. The authoritative writings are not very detailed. Sure, the faith of Paul is to be admired but that does not mean he did not change the course of Christianity from what Jesus would have wanted it to be and Paul turned the gospel message into a message about salvation rather than the actual teachings of Jesus, which stressed good works.

I look forward to learning something from that thread, and if I can get my husband to type up what Udo Schaefer said about Paul, I will post it there.

I am sure you are smart as you would not have gotten through medical school if you weren’t. I could not even get through science courses but I excelled in psychology. I am not that knowledgeable about religions other than Baha’i as you are, but you have been on this forum a lot longer than I have and you have made it a point to learn. My interest is more in human interactions and how people think and why, especially regarding God and Messengers, since I have the background in psychology.

I can agree about the atheists having a dog in the fight. It makes sense that blaming something/someone else gets them off the hook and the Bible has been the target. I have conversed many atheists and they use the Bible as a reason/excuse not to believe in God or any scriptures that were revealed after the Bible.

Thanks. That gives me a little context.

Yes I know, there are big differences. Obviously Christianity sees the resurrection completely differently than the Baha’i Faith.

Yes, I am sure it is more complicated than that and Baha’u’llah did not actually say that although He implied it. The point of the passage was not about that though; it was about whether the Bible had been corrupted, as some Muslims claim.

"Compared to references to the Qur’an the Iqan" Unquote.

Please give all such reference about Quran and then prove Bahaullah's point of view from the context verses.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

"Compared to references to the Qur’an the Iqan" Unquote.

Please give all such reference about Quran and then prove Bahaullah's point of view from the context verses.

Regards

I would be happy to quote and explain some of these verses, but you already decided that Baha’u’llah is fallible, so what is the point? If both Muhammad and Baha’u’llah are just fallible Prophets I do not see the point of believing in either one of them, since they could both be wrong about anything.

 

[paarsurrey]

I would be happy to quote and explain some of these verses, but you already decided that Baha’u’llah is fallible, so what is the point? If both Muhammad and Baha’u’llah are just fallible Prophets I do not see the point of believing in either one of them, since they could both be wrong about anything.

Quran is not authored by Muhammad, it is authored by G-d, and G-d is infallible. All prophets/messengers of G-d are humans, they can make mistakes of understanding.
If Bahaullah claimed to be infallible that is enough, I believe, for his fallibility. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Quran is not authored by Muhammad, it is authored by G-d, and G-d is infallible. All prophets/messengers of G-d are humans, they can make mistakes of understanding.
If Bahaullah claimed to be infallible that is enough, I believe, for his fallibility. Right, please?

Regards

How did God write the Qur'an? Did God have a pen and paper?
Or are you saying that God spoke to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel and that is how the Qur'an came to be written?
That is no different from the way the Writings of Baha'u'llah came to be written. God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven.

 

[paarsurrey]

I didn't mean any one who has a Bahai membership. I meant a perfect Baha'i, like Abdulbaha would not make any distinction between Bahaullah and God. Do you think Abdulbaha made any distinction between God and Bahaullah? Did not Abdulbaha believe who ever has seen Bahaullah, has seen God?

"I meant a perfect Baha'i, like Abdulbaha would not make any distinction between Bahaullah and God." Unquote.

Did Bahaullah mention who is a perfect Bahai, please?
If yes, then please quote from Bahaullah's Kitab-i-Iqan.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

How did God write the Qur'an? Did God have a pen and paper?
Or are you saying that God spoke to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel and that is how the Qur'an came to be written?
That is no different from the way the Writings of Baha'u'llah came to be written. God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven.

"God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven." Unquote.

If Bahaullah was himself G-d*, then it is meaningless to state that "God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven", it becomes unreasonable and therefore fallible also, please?

*as stated by friend InvestigateTruth in post #110 .

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven." Unquote.

If Bahaullah was himself G-d*, then it is meaningless to state that "God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven", it becomes unreasonable and therefore fallible also, please?

*as stated by friend InvestigateTruth in post #110 .

Regards

You have pointed out a very important thing. Bahaullah was Manifestation of God the moment He came to this world. But He did not reveal it yet, as people were not ready to accept that. God began by introducing Him, in a way that does not disturb people. The people who lived at the time in Persia or ottoman Empire were mostly Muslims, and in their understanding, God always speaks through an angel, similarly to Revelations of Muhammad. But when gradually Bahaullah taught the concept of manifestations of God, the people around Him learned that God can manifest Himself in a person who has a human form. At that time, when people became ready to bear it, He told them the truth that He is God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"I meant a perfect Baha'i, like Abdulbaha would not make any distinction between Bahaullah and God." Unquote.

Did Bahaullah mention who is a perfect Bahai, please?
If yes, then please quote from Bahaullah's Kitab-i-Iqan.

Regards

It is in not in Iqan. Bahaullah wrote Iqan at the time when He had not yet revealed His station. The establishment of Bahai Faith had appeared in two gradual revelations. First the Bab proclaimed to be the Qaim and the 12th imam. He lived for 7 years. Then Bahaullah appeared, who proclaimed to be the fulfilment of Manifestation of the Lord, the reappearance of the Qaim, the Qayyoum, the Father, and return of Imam Hussein,..and basically all prophecies in all religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

"God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven." Unquote.

If Bahaullah was himself G-d*, then it is meaningless to state that "God spoke to Baha'u'llah through a Maid of Heaven", it becomes unreasonable and therefore fallible also, please?

*as stated by friend InvestigateTruth in post #110 .

Regards

Baha'u'llah was not God. He manifested the Attributes of God so in that sense if we saw Him we saw the Attributes of God but Baha'u'llah (like Muhammad) was:

1. A Messenger of God
2. A Servant of God
3. The Voice of God

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been 55 made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55​

However, Baha'u'llah made it clear in no uncertain terms that He was not God.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228​

 

[Trailblazer]

"I meant a perfect Baha'i, like Abdulbaha would not make any distinction between Bahaullah and God." Unquote.

Did Bahaullah mention who is a perfect Bahai, please?
If yes, then please quote from Bahaullah's Kitab-i-Iqan.

Regards

Abdu'l-Baha was considered the Exemplar, the perfect Bahai. I am not sure if Baha'u'llah actually wrote that but Baha'u'llah did write that Abdu'l-Baha was the Centre of His Covenant and the one who Baha'is were to turn to after Baha'u'llah died. It is common knowledge among Baha'is that Abdu'l-Baha is the example we are to follow, just as Christians are enjoined to be like Jesus.

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah was not God. He manifested the Attributes of God so in that sense if we saw Him we saw the Attributes of God but Baha'u'llah (like Muhammad) was:

1. A Messenger of God
2. A Servant of God
3. The Voice of God

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim, “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they, verily, utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been 55 made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55​

However, Baha'u'llah made it clear in no uncertain terms that He was not God.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228​

Instead of quoting from a book (Gleanings) that is actually a compilation of quotes from other writings which:

• is possible to be cherry picking by the compilers
• leaving such passages that are against the views of the unknown compilers
• anthologies may possibly miss the entire context of the passages as well as the geopolitical position of the places and people that existed at that time.

To avoid such possibilities it is appropriate that the Bahaism friends here and even Non-Bahaism could quote from such books which have been actually written/authored by Bahaullah. The translations should side by side provide the originals in Arabic and or Persian, their transliteration, and as well word by word translation in English, so that we get to know the actual views of the man titled Bahaullah instead of the views of the narrators,translators and compilers, whatever their status in Bahaism people and or Non-Bahaism people may be. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Instead of quoting from a book (Gleanings) that is actually a compilation of quotes from other writings which:

• is possible to be cherry picking by the compilers
• leaving such passages that are against the views of the unknown compilers
• anthologies may possibly miss the entire context of the passages as well as the geopolitical position of the places and people that existed at that time.

To avoid such possibilities it is appropriate that the Bahaism friends here and even Non-Bahaism could quote from such books which have been actually written/authored by Bahaullah. The translations should side by side provide the originals in Arabic and or Persian, their transliteration, and as well word by word translation in English, so that we get to know the actual views of the man titled Bahaullah instead of the views of the narrators,translators and compilers, whatever their status in Bahaism people and or Non-Bahaism people may be. Right, please?

Regards

Can you read Persian or Arabic? If so, there are Tablets you might be able to read that have as yet not been translated into English.

The Works of Bahá'u'lláh that I know are available to read in Persian and Arabic are in the Baha’i Reference Library.

I do not see cherry picking as a problem because everything that has been translated are the exact words of Baha'u'llah...

The most important Writings have been translated into English. All of the Tablets of Baha'u'llah have not been translated due to lack of funding. Muct care must be taken in translating so as not to change the meanings intended. It is better to wait and have it done correctly than to get more Writings translated incorrectly.

Here is an explanation of how Gleanings was compiled:
It is called Gleanings because it is kind of an extraction of information from various Tablets... from the Introduction of Gleanings:

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.” Gleanings

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings​

 

[paarsurrey]

Abdu'l-Baha was considered the Exemplar, the perfect Bahai. I am not sure if Baha'u'llah actually wrote that but Baha'u'llah did write that Abdu'l-Baha was the Centre of His Covenant and the one who Baha'is were to turn to after Baha'u'llah died. It is common knowledge among Baha'is that Abdu'l-Baha is the example we are to follow, just as Christians are enjoined to be like Jesus.

We are not in RF to decide as to whom the Bahaism people out of credulity consider an exemplar or perfect-Bahai, RF is an open forum, here all possibilities are debated/discussed. Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We are not in RF to decide as to whom the Bahaism people out of credulity consider an exemplar or perfect-Bahai, RF is an open forum, here all possibilities are debated/discussed. Right, please?

Regards

Paarsurry, you are the person asking the questions. The answers to those questions you may not agree with and that is fine.

What you have to understand about the Baha'i Writings is that all of Baha'u'llah's works are like One book, a book that is over 100 volumes.

Just as each Surah in the Quran is part of the whole book, so is each tablet of Baha'u'llah part of the whole volumes.

With Baha'u'llah, He has given a Covernant that allows the Writings of Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi to be an Authority of Interpretation and thus they are an appendix to the Volumes of writings of Bahau'llah.

Again you do not have to accept that, but a Baha'i will give an answer from all those sources.

Do not expect us to post Arabic or Persian, if we can not read that.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

We are not in RF to decide as to whom the Bahaism people out of credulity consider an exemplar or perfect-Bahai, RF is an open forum, here all possibilities are debated/discussed. Right, please?

Regards

It is not out of credulity that we consider Abdu'l-Baha the Exemplar. It is because that is who He was called.
I do not know what you are getting at, what possibilities?