Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

[TransmutingSoul]

Then why does the passage start out referring to His Essence? I do not see anything written about the Spirit of God in the entire passage.

As I said this matter will be a personal Journey. I am happy that I see the Sun and the Mirror.

It could be, when it is directed one way we may only see the mirror and another way only the Sun

Much like this

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Since today is Monday, I've decided that Monday is a good day to gripe and complain about the way my fellow Baha'is sometimes persistently and stubbornly misrepresent what I'm doing, and stigmatize me for it. Of course they aren't the only ones. It happens to me everywhere I go in Internet discussions. Yes, thanks, I'll have some of that cheese.

I see people's lives being damaged by thinking that their religion condemns their romantic feelings and sexual interests in people of their own sex. Incidentally, I've fallen in love with men once or twice in my life, and if I allow it I can easily be sexually aroused by looking at a man. I remember being sexually aroused by looking at a tree once or twice my life. I'm not ashamed of any of that. In fact, I think that it's people who depreciate those capacities who have a problem, not me.

However that may be, as I said, I see people's lives being damaged by thinking that their religion condemns their romantic feelings and sexual interests in people of their own sex, and I think that calling the prohibition that some Baha'is see in Baha'i scriptures, against all sexual relationships between two women or two men, a "prohibition against homosexuality," helps perpetuate that. I've been trying to explain to Baha'is how they might be able avoid doing that damage to people's lives, and still say everything that they think needs to be said about that prohibition. Persistently evading the issue of damaging people's lives, they stubbornly insist on re-framing what I'm trying to do as Compromising With The Enemy.

Worse, if there are any Baha'is here who have seen me being stigmatized this way, and who do not think that all I'm doing is Compromising With The Enemy, none of them have told me so.

Does anyone have any helpful ideas about what to do in a situation like this, apart from proselytizing for your anti-religious views advising me to give up my religion?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please provide a quote where Baha'u'llah says He is God.
Please provide a Bible verse where Jesus says He is God.

They were either God or they were not God. They cannot be God and not God because that is logically contradictory.
I am a woman or I am a man. I cannot be both a woman and a man.

Trailblazer, as noted this is not a debatable topic. When we try to set a view as to Who is God and what is the Essence of a Manifestation, we only get error.

This is how the Trinity was formed, debate over if Jesus Christ was God.

The Tablet of the Temple is Baha'u'llah's most challenging work, I have been reading it over and over and I am still to form an opinion. Baha'u'llah is that Temple promised by God and look what is said;

"...Say: Naught is seen in My temple but the Temple of God, and in My beauty but His Beauty, and in My being but His Being, and in My self but His Self, and in My movement but His Movement, and in My acquiescence but His Acquiescence, and in My pen but His Pen, the Mighty, the All-Praised. There hath not been in My soul but the Truth, and in Myself naught could be seen but God. Beware lest ye speak of duality in regard to My Self, for all the atoms of the earth proclaim that there is none other God but Him, the One, the Single, the Mighty, the Loving. From the beginning that hath no beginning I have proclaimed, from the realm of eternity, that I am God, none other God is there save Me, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting; and unto the end that hath no end I shall proclaim, amidst the kingdom of names, that I am God, none other God is there beside Me, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: Lordship is My Name, whereof I have created manifestations in the world of being, while We Ourself remain sanctified above them, would ye but ponder this truth. And Godhead is My Name, whereof We have created exponents whose power shall encompass the people of the earth and make them true worshippers of God, could ye but recognize it. Thus should ye regard all Our Names, if ye be endued with insight."

So do we make a Duality? I see we are told beware if we do.

Is it not saying all the Names are likewise part of the One?

All I know is that we should not try to form a set doctrine in our mind as to what this all means. The document 'One Common Faith', I see wants us not to make these mistakes.

Thus I consider that what is not God is the body of Mirza Hussan Ali Nuri, the bodies of all Messengers. As to Baha'u'llah, this is the Spirit that comes from God. I have absolutely no idea as to what this is in Essence, except if I look to Baha'u'llah, I see what we can see of God in attributes.

This is that Tablet, if you are yet to read it, it is amazing; The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Enjoy!

Also consider many people await the building of the 3rd temple in the Holy land. Personally I see Baha'u'llah is that Temple they wait for.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Since today is Monday, I've decided that Monday is a good day to gripe and complain about the way my fellow Baha'is sometimes persistently and stubbornly misrepresent what I'm doing, and stigmatize me for it. Of course they aren't the only ones. It happens to me everywhere I go in Internet discussions. Yes, thanks, I'll have some of that cheese.

We all have those Mondays Jim, but I have found mine are actually 7 days a week .

Fortunatly, we get over it for a while and know that all our problems are our own Battle. It is for us never to see any fault in another soul, we are to find the gem in each person.

We then pick ourselves up and try each day to be better. Little by little day by day.

I have found this turmoil is part of our daily life as we try to implement the values that are required in this day. You are not alone in that turmoil. What we need to do is try not to add to another's, but somehow help each other. Is this not the Unity we are chasing?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I already did. It was in the Tablet of Visitation.

“I bear witness that he who hath known Thee hath known God, and he who hath attained unto Thy presence hath attained unto the presence of God.” Bahá’í Prayers, p. 231

That is true, because the only way we can know God or attain God’s presence is through the Manifestation of God.

But also in the Tablet to Christians:

"Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ "
Bahaullah

When Baha’u’llah said that the Father had come He meant that He came in the “station” of the Father just as Jesus came in the “station “ of the Son, but Jesus was not literally the Son of God anymore than Baha’u’llah was literally the Father (God).

The following passage does not describe Baha’u’llah; it describes God.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192​

No Manifestation of God has the following Attributes. These Attributes are unique to God: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, Omnipresent, All-Wise, All-Knowing, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial.

What they could not bear to hear was the “message” of Baha’u’llah, the unity of mankind, etc. Clearly, humanity was not ready to hear such a message that back in the days of Christ. They are even having a difficult time hearing it now.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

Here Jesus is referring to His Second Coming, when all the religions would be gathered together and become one religion. As the return of the Christ Spirit Jesus promised to send from the Father, Baha’u’llah came to gather everyone into ONE religion, the Religion of the One God who created the universe.

Just as Christ held back some of what He knew back in His day, Baha’u’llah held back some of what He knew in this day because we are not capable of comprehending it yet...

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.......

Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176​

See, Baha’u’llah although is God, still in many occasions proclaimed it wisely, in a moderate way, so people may bear it. For example, in some cases He denied being God, so others do not get disturbed.

Baha’u’llah said that God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. That means that the fullness of God can never be revealed to man, that we can never see it.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

Referring to God as the Essence of all created things Baha’u’llah disclaims any direct relationship with God. He also says that every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of God, which is why we do not understand the nature of Baha’u’llah.

“Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

And when Bahaullah proclaimed His mission using the expressions of a mystical experience He wrote:

"During the days I lay in the prison of Ṭihrán, though the galling weight of the chains and the stench-filled air allowed Me but little sleep, still in those infrequent moments of slumber I felt as if something flowed from the crown of My head over My breast, even as a mighty torrent that precipitateth itself upon the earth from the summit of a lofty mountain. Every limb of My body would, as a result, be set afire. At such moments My tongue recited what no man could bear to hear."

Now what do you think His tongue recited that no man could bear to hear?

What no man could bear was that God was communicating with Baha’u’llah, working through Him, which is why every limb of His body was set afire by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[paarsurrey]

Did Abdu'l-Baha say that whoever has seen Baha'u'llah has seen God?

You need to put this in some kind of context. If there was no distinction between Baha'u'llah and God, that would mean that Baha'u'llah was God.

Baha’u’llah disclaimed being God:

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228​

The Only Sense in which Baha’u’llah was God is that He manifested the Attributes and Names of God. He was the Voice of God, but He was not God.

“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world....... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth..........For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and the “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the Innermost Spirit of Spirits and Eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 54-55​

Please note that Baha’u’llah said that God is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above all created things. Nevertheless, the Will of Baha’u’llah was identical to the Will of God.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle...​

The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

However, Baha’u’llah made it abundantly clear that God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

It is very strange that our Bahai friends here don't have clarity about the basic claim of Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri . Please decide about it without doubt whether he claimed god-head or not. It is important. To me he was not god, he couldn't be, please.
To me, he was not even a prophet/messenger of G-d, as I gave clues/reasons from Quran.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

It is very strange that our Bahai friends here don't have clarity about the basic claim of Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri . Please decide about it without doubt whether he claimed god-head or not. It is important. To me he was not god, he couldn't be, please.
To me, he was not even a prophet/messenger of G-d, as I gave clues/reasons from Quran.

Baha'ullah never claimed to be God. He claimed to be a Manifestation of God, a Messenger of God, and a Servant of God.

 

[paarsurrey]

I didn't mean any one who has a Bahai membership. I meant a perfect Baha'i, like Abdulbaha would not make any distinction between Bahaullah and God. Do you think Abdulbaha made any distinction between God and Bahaullah? Did not Abdulbaha believe who ever has seen Bahaullah, has seen God?

"Did not Abdulbaha believe who ever has seen Bahaullah, has seen God?" Unquote.

Well, I am not a Bahai, but the expression of Abdulbaha, "who ever has seen Bahaullah, has seen God?" may only mean that one could "Know G-d from His signs" and he thought these were reflected in Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri. Though I don't believe there were any such signs in Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri , for obvious reasons.
Well, it is to be decided by the Bahais for themselves. I don't believe in him, for sure.

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is very strange that our Bahai friends here don't have clarity about the basic claim of Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri . Please decide about it without doubt whether he claimed god-head or not. It is important. To me he was not god, he couldn't be, please.
To me, he was not even a prophet/messenger of G-d, as I gave clues/reasons from Quran.

Baha'ullah never claimed to be God. He claimed to be a Manifestation of God, a Messenger of God, and a Servant of God.

Paarsurry - This subject has never been clear, that is why there has been so much division of Faith. There are many that see their Messenger as God and there are many that see the Messenger as a Messenger of God. Then there is many thoughts in between.

What we do know, is that the Essence of God can not be known.

So how do we know God? We know God by the Attributes. Who are the Attributes? The Messengers.

Can we seperate the Attributes from the Essence? Can we divide all the Messengers of God?

It all comes Back to the Single Source of us all....God.

Personally I will not debate this subject. But I do find it interesting to discuss, only if it is a discussion, as I am happy to look at it in both ways.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That is true, because the only way we can know God or attain God’s presence is through the Manifestation of God.

When Baha’u’llah said that the Father had come He meant that He came in the “station” of the Father just as Jesus came in the “station “ of the Son, but Jesus was not literally the Son of God anymore than Baha’u’llah was literally the Father (God).

The following passage does not describe Baha’u’llah; it describes God.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192​

No Manifestation of God has the following Attributes. These Attributes are unique to God: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, Omnipresent, All-Wise, All-Knowing, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial.

What they could not bear to hear was the “message” of Baha’u’llah, the unity of mankind, etc. Clearly, humanity was not ready to hear such a message that back in the days of Christ. They are even having a difficult time hearing it now.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

Here Jesus is referring to His Second Coming, when all the religions would be gathered together and become one religion. As the return of the Christ Spirit Jesus promised to send from the Father, Baha’u’llah came to gather everyone into ONE religion, the Religion of the One God who created the universe.

Just as Christ held back some of what He knew back in His day, Baha’u’llah held back some of what He knew in this day because we are not capable of comprehending it yet...

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.......

Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176​

Baha’u’llah said that God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. That means that the fullness of God can never be revealed to man, that we can never see it.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

Referring to God as the Essence of all created things Baha’u’llah disclaims any direct relationship with God. He also says that every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of God, which is why we do not understand the nature of Baha’u’llah.

“Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

What no man could bear was that God was communicating with Baha’u’llah, working through Him, which is why every limb of His body was set afire by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, there is only One God, and that was the One who Manifested Himself as Bahaullah. It was indeed Him. It was Him who was speaking with the mouth of Mirza Hussein Ali.

See, what He said:

Speed out of your sepulchers. How long will ye sleep? The second blast hath been blown on the trumpet. On whom are ye gazing? This is your Lord, the God of Mercy. Witness how ye gainsay His signs! The earth hath quaked with a great quaking, and cast forth her burdens. Will ye not admit it? Say: Will ye not recognize how the mountains have become like flocks of wool, how the people are sore vexed at the awful majesty of the Cause of God? Witness how their houses are empty ruins, and they themselves a drowned host.
This is the Day whereon the All-Merciful hath come down in the clouds of knowledge, clothed with manifest sovereignty. He well knoweth the actions of men. He it is Whose glory none can mistake, could ye but comprehend it. The heaven of every religion hath been rent, and the earth of human understanding been cleft asunder, and the angels of God are seen descending. Say: This is the Day of mutual deceit; whither do ye flee? The mountains have passed away, and the heavens have been folded together, and the whole earth is held within His grasp, could ye but understand it. Who is it that can protect you? None, by Him Who is the All-Merciful! None, except God, the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the Beneficent. Every woman that hath had a burden in her womb hath cast her burden. We see men drunken in this Day, the Day in which men and angels have been gathered together.
Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 43-46

 

[Trailblazer]

So do we make a Duality? I see we are told beware if we do.

A Manifestation of God and God are separate in kind. They share the same Spirit, but no Manifestation of God has the following Attributes: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, All-powerful, Omnipresent, All-Wise, All-Knowing, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial.

Thus I consider that what is not God is the body of Mirza Hussan Ali Nuri, the bodies of all Messengers. As to Baha'u'llah, this is the Spirit that comes from God. I have absolutely no idea as to what this is in Essence, except if I look to Baha'u'llah, I see what we can see of God in attributes.

Yes, Baha'u'llah was the appearance of the Holy Spirit. I like the way Abdu'l-Baha described the three stations of the Manifestations of God:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.​

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.​

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.​

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152​

 

[paarsurrey]

Can you post some quotes? If Baha'u'llah claimed to be God I need to know that because I post to a lot of people and I need to know what Baha'u'llah claimed.

One will never get a straightforward , unequivocal and without-doubt answer from Bahaullah.
I believe, he played artfully with the words and created an ambiguity in the minds of his followers while he put the burden of meaning of his words on 'Abdu'l-Bahá's and Shoghi Effendi, not a good practice though. I may be wrong, but this come to my mind.

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, there is only One God, and that was the One who Manifested Himself as Bahaullah. It was indeed Him. It was Him who was speaking with the mouth of Mirza Hussein Ali.

God manifested Himself through Baha'u'llah. God did not become Baha'u'llah anymore than God became Jesus.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49
​

Yes, God spoke through the mouth of Baha'u'llah.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it. O peoples of the world! Cast away, in My name that transcendeth all other names, the things ye possess, and immerse yourselves in this Ocean in whose depths lay hidden the pearls of wisdom and of utterance, an ocean that surgeth in My name, the All-Merciful. 34 Thus instructeth you He with Whom is the Mother Book.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 33-34​

 

[Trailblazer]

One will never get a straightforward , unequivocal and without-doubt answer from Bahaullah.
I believe, he played artfully with the words and created an ambiguity in the minds of his followers while he put the burden of meaning of his words on 'Abdu'l-Bahá's and Shoghi Effendi, not a good practice though. I may be wrong, but this come to my mind.

I do not think that Baha'u'llah did any of that on purpose. If one really studies the Writings, there is no ambiguity. It is not really that complicated. Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, a Messenger and a Servant of God. He spoke from various stations. When He spoke as God He was the Voice of God. When He spoke as a Servant of God, he humbled Himself before God was was totally self-effacing.

I do not need the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi in order to know who Baha'u'llah claimed to be. It is all in Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

God manifested Himself through Baha'u'llah. God did not become Baha'u'llah

Baha'u'llah is 'Glory of God'
Christ is 'Annointed One', Annointed of God.

Also note Baha'u'llah was designated Jehovah in the Old Testament.

Remember Names can become veils. Again we are not talking of flesh bodies.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah is 'Glory of God'
Christ is 'Annointed One', Annointed of God.

Also note Baha'u'llah was designated Jehovah in the Old Testament.

Remember Names can become veils. Again we are not talking of flesh bodies.

Regards Tony

Baha'ul'lah was designated Jehovah in the Old Testament?
Not that it matters. I do not consider anything in the Bible to have any real validity.
As such, I feel like it is a waste of time to talk about it or refer to it.
Sorry if that hurts some peoples' feelings but I cannot be dishonest.

 

[Jim]

I do not consider anything in the Bible to have any real validity.
As such, I feel like it is a waste of time to talk about it or refer to it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'ul'lah was designated Jehovah in the Old Testament?
Not that it matters. I do not consider anything in the Bible to have any real validity.
As such, I feel like it is a waste of time to talk about it or refer to it.
Sorry if that hurts some peoples' feelings but I cannot be dishonest.

The Bible is confirmed by the Baha'i Revelation as indespensable. Do not be sorry, just try to understand it like we all can choose to do.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 97-120

This passage by Shoghi Effendi;

“I testify before God,” proclaims Bahá’u’lláh, “to the greatness, the inconceivable greatness of this Revelation. Again and again have We in most of Our Tablets borne witness to this truth, that mankind may be roused from its heedlessness.” “In this most mighty Revelation,” He unequivocally announces, “all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation.” “That which hath been made manifest in this préeminent, this most exalted Revelation, stands unparalleled in the annals of the past, nor will future ages witness its like.” “He it is,” referring to Himself He further proclaims, “Who in the Old Testament hath been named Jehovah, Who in the Gospel hath been designated as the Spirit of Truth, and in the Qur’án acclaimed as the Great Announcement.” “But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the robe of prophethood, nor would any of the sacred scriptures have been revealed. To this bear witness all created things.” “The word which the one true God uttereth in this day, though that word be the most familiar and commonplace of terms, is invested with supreme, with unique distinction.” “The generality of mankind is still immature. Had it acquired sufficient capacity We would have bestowed upon it so great a measure of Our knowledge that all who dwell on earth and in heaven would have found themselves, by virtue of the grace streaming from Our pen, completely independent of all knowledge save the knowledge of God, and would have been securely established upon the throne of abiding tranquillity.” “The Pen of Holiness, I solemnly affirm before God, hath writ upon My snow-white brow and in characters of effulgent glory these glowing, these musk-scented and holy words: ‘Behold ye that dwell on earth, and ye denizens of heaven, bear witness, He in truth is your Well-Beloved. He it is Whose like the world of creation hath not seen, He Whose ravishing beauty hath delighted the eye of God, the Ordainer, the All-Powerful, the Incomparable!’”

Be happy Trailblazer and always, always have a mind they weighs all things.

Lets leave it there Trailblazer, thank you for the chat, it is always a path of discovery when God is our topic.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The Bible is confirmed by the Baha'i Revelation as indespensable. Do not be sorry, just try to understand it like we all can choose to do.

Where do the Baha'i Writings say that The Bible indispensable?
Shoghi Effendi said that the previous Revelations have been abrogated; why then would we need the Bible? I have no interest in understanding the Bible and no need to. It has been abrogated.

"In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures,” Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 100
​

Preserving the sanctity of their Scriptures does not mean they have any applicability to to this age in history.
That feels like a bit of double-talk; were the Bible scriptures authentic or not? We all know they are not authentic and they have no Divine origin, so why does he say that?

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

From: The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Where do the Baha'i Writings say that The Bible indispensable?
Shoghi Effendi said that the previous Revelations have been abrogated; why then would we need the Bible? I have no interest in understanding the Bible and no need to. It has been abrogated.

"In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it, upholds uncompromisingly the eternal verities they enshrine, recognizes firmly and absolutely the Divine origin of their Authors, preserves inviolate the sanctity of their authentic Scriptures,” Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 100
​

Preserving the sanctity of their Scriptures does not mean they have any applicability to to this age in history.
That feels like a bit of double-talk; were the Bible scriptures authentic or not? We all know they are not authentic and they have no Divine origin, so why does he say that?

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

From: The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

Balance all that with just this;

Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

Also many other passages will attest to Bible.

We have to balance all the wrirings, as many are specific answers to specific questions.

Regards Tony