Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

[Trailblazer]

Please quote from Quran- the Narration/Book, the perfect Book that mentions the things with clarity , if correctly/righteously understood, clears all the doubts.

Why would you think that the Qur'an would clear all doubts about Baha'u'llah? Did the Old Testament clear all doubts about Jesus? Did the New Testament clear all doubts about Muhammad?

The most recent Manifestation of God clears all doubts about all the Manifestations of God who preceded Him because He knows everything about all of them, since they are all the same Spirit of God made manifest..

 

[Jim]

Sorry to hear you are unable or unwilling to state clearly what the problem is you have with me.

You’ve repeatedly ignored what I’ve told you about that, and other vital issues, or effectively treated it as a lie. You’ll just have to learn by trial and error, if it matters to you. Otherwise, maybe you can just ignore it. I’ll try to avoid mentioning you any more.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaullah never claimed to be God, because He was not incarnation of God, but He claimed to be God, because God manifested Himself in Him.

Can you post some quotes? If Baha'u'llah claimed to be God I need to know that because I post to a lot of people and I need to know what Baha'u'llah claimed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Yes that is correct. The 'Primal Will', 'the I AM', The 'Most Great Spirit' is the Cause and this is the Spirit in the Messengers of G_d that radiates to the world as the Holy Spirit."Unquote.

So, here again Mirza Hussein Ali Nouri makes a mistake and becomes fallible. It was OK to consider him among Messengers of G_d, had he:

• been appointed by G-d
• not brought a new religion.
• accepted Quran as the Law
• not claimed a god-head
• followed the Sunnah of Muhammad.

But he was a fallible human being and made all these mistakes. Sorry for him really, please.

Regards

All good Paarsurry. Stay well and happy

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

This passage helps;

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed. . . None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: 'Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.'" (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

Regards Tony

And that is seriously dangerous ..........
If Bahai wants the people of the World to swallow that then they're going to need some seriously heavy brainwashing.

Let us look into the daggers hidden within the pibnions of this particular lark....:-

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language.

Anybody with a brain knows about double entendres..... saying one thing, but meaning another.....

One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion.

Our promises that devout support will gain Heaven for ever with loved ones is all true talk.

Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned.

So what you've heard so far is all true... easy to grasp.

The other language is veiled and concealed. . . None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him.

Our other words will be difficult for the masses to understand. Only your leaders will see the truth in them, and so you need to have faith in their decisions.

In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended.

Such words may look like one thing but will mean another. So don't challenge us when we say one thing yet do another, because we could see the straight line all the time, whilst you were blinded.

Thus it is recorded: 'Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.'" (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan,

Knowledge and truth is too complicated for the people. They'll never be able to understand our claims, promises and explanations......... only your leaders have such wisdom.


Tony, is that about right?
Hath not the Oldbadger told thee repeatedly over the eons of RF threads, his call flying as the swifts for all to hear, yet for ever smitten and ripped by the raptors of blind belief.............
BEWARE OF DOUBLE THINK!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you post some quotes? If Baha'u'llah claimed to be God I need to know that because I post to a lot of people and I need to know what Baha'u'llah claimed.

I already did. It was in the Tablet of Visitation.

But also in the Tablet to Christians:

"Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ "
Bahaullah


See, Bahaullah although is God, still in many occasions proclaimed it wisely, in a moderate way, so people may bear it. For example, in some cases He denied being God, so others do not get disturbed.

And when Bahaullah proclaimed His mission using the expressions of a mystical experience He wrote:


"During the days I lay in the prison of Ṭihrán, though the galling weight of the chains and the stench-filled air allowed Me but little sleep, still in those infrequent moments of slumber I felt as if something flowed from the crown of My head over My breast, even as a mighty torrent that precipitateth itself upon the earth from the summit of a lofty mountain. Every limb of My body would, as a result, be set afire. At such moments My tongue recited what no man could bear to hear."


Now what do you think His tongue recited that no man could bear to hear?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

See, Bahaullah although is God, still in many occasions proclaimed it wisely, in a moderate way, so people may bear it. For example, in some cases He denied being God, so others do not get disturbed.

Can you post some quotes? If Baha'u'llah claimed to be God I need to know that because I post to a lot of people and I need to know what Baha'u'llah claimed.

This to me has been a very tricky meditation over the years, when one thinks they are getting a clear view, one reads other passages that brings up the questions all over again.

This I read last night and it is the passage that always gives deeper thought;

"...Say: The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. And that innate and untaught nature in its essence is called into being by the verses of God, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: This nature prideth itself in its relation to Our transcendent Truth, whilst We, for Our part, glory neither in it nor in aught else, for all beside Myself hath been created through the potency of My word, could ye but understand.

51 Say: We have revealed Our verses in nine different modes. Each one of them bespeaketh the sovereignty of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. A single one of them sufficeth for a proof unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth; yet the people, for the most part, persist in their heedlessness. Should it be Our wish, We would reveal them in countless other modes.

52 Say: O people! Fear ye God, and allow not your tongues to utter, in their deceitfulness, that which displeaseth Him. Stand abashed before the One Who, as ye well know, hath created you out of a drop of water.[4] Say: We have created all that are in heaven and on earth in the nature made by God. Whosoever turneth unto this blessed Countenance shall manifest the potentialities of that inborn nature, and whosoever remaineth veiled therefrom shall be deprived of this invisible and all-encompassing grace. Verily, there is naught from which Our favour hath been withheld, inasmuch as We have dealt equitably in the fashioning of each and all, and by a word of Our mouth presented unto them the trust of Our love. They that have accepted it are indeed safe and secure, and are numbered among those who are immune from the terrors of this Day. Those, however, who have rejected it have, in truth, disbelieved in God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Thus do We distinguish between the people and pronounce judgement upon them. We, of a certainty, have the power to discern.

53 Say: The Word of God can never be confounded with the words of His creatures. It is, in truth, the King of words, even as He is Himself the sovereign Lord of all, and His Cause transcendeth all that was and all that shall be. Enter, O people, the City of Certitude wherein the throne of your Lord, the All-Merciful, hath been established. Thus biddeth you the Pen of the All-Glorious, as a token of His unfailing grace. Haply ye may not make His Revelation a cause of dissension amongst you.

54 Among the infidels are those who have repudiated His Self and risen up against His Cause, and who claim that these divine verses are contrived. Such also were the objections of the deniers of old, who now implore deliverance from the Fire. Say: Woe betide you for the idle words that proceed from your mouths! If these verses be indeed contrived, then by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, if ye be men of understanding! Whensoever We revealed Our clear verses unto such men, they rejected them, and whensoever they beheld that which the combined forces of the earth are powerless to produce, they pronounced it sorcery...." The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

This to me has been a very tricky meditation over the years, when one thinks they are getting a clear view, one reads other passages that brings up the questions all over again.

This I read last night and it is the passage that always gives deeper thought;

"...Say: The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. And that innate and untaught nature in its essence is called into being by the verses of God, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: This nature prideth itself in its relation to Our transcendent Truth, whilst We, for Our part, glory neither in it nor in aught else, for all beside Myself hath been created through the potency of My word, could ye but understand.

51 Say: We have revealed Our verses in nine different modes. Each one of them bespeaketh the sovereignty of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. A single one of them sufficeth for a proof unto all who are in the heavens and on the earth; yet the people, for the most part, persist in their heedlessness. Should it be Our wish, We would reveal them in countless other modes.

52 Say: O people! Fear ye God, and allow not your tongues to utter, in their deceitfulness, that which displeaseth Him. Stand abashed before the One Who, as ye well know, hath created you out of a drop of water.[4] Say: We have created all that are in heaven and on earth in the nature made by God. Whosoever turneth unto this blessed Countenance shall manifest the potentialities of that inborn nature, and whosoever remaineth veiled therefrom shall be deprived of this invisible and all-encompassing grace. Verily, there is naught from which Our favour hath been withheld, inasmuch as We have dealt equitably in the fashioning of each and all, and by a word of Our mouth presented unto them the trust of Our love. They that have accepted it are indeed safe and secure, and are numbered among those who are immune from the terrors of this Day. Those, however, who have rejected it have, in truth, disbelieved in God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Thus do We distinguish between the people and pronounce judgement upon them. We, of a certainty, have the power to discern.

53 Say: The Word of God can never be confounded with the words of His creatures. It is, in truth, the King of words, even as He is Himself the sovereign Lord of all, and His Cause transcendeth all that was and all that shall be. Enter, O people, the City of Certitude wherein the throne of your Lord, the All-Merciful, hath been established. Thus biddeth you the Pen of the All-Glorious, as a token of His unfailing grace. Haply ye may not make His Revelation a cause of dissension amongst you.

54 Among the infidels are those who have repudiated His Self and risen up against His Cause, and who claim that these divine verses are contrived. Such also were the objections of the deniers of old, who now implore deliverance from the Fire. Say: Woe betide you for the idle words that proceed from your mouths! If these verses be indeed contrived, then by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, if ye be men of understanding! Whensoever We revealed Our clear verses unto such men, they rejected them, and whensoever they beheld that which the combined forces of the earth are powerless to produce, they pronounced it sorcery...." The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

So what is your conclusion?
Do you think Baha'u'llah was God?
Baha'u'llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God. How could He be both a Manifestation and God at the same time? This is the same problems Christians have in trying to explain how Jesus can be the Son of God and God. It is logically impossible.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what is your conclusion?
Do you think Baha'u'llah was God?
Baha'u'llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God. How could He be both a Manifestation and God at the same time? This is the same problems Christians have in trying to explain how Jesus can be the Son of God and God. It is logically impossible.

My current thought is we can see it both ways as long as it is not the cause of arguments or that we try to convince others to think of it in a certain way. It is a mystery we are to continually contemplate...how can we grasp this?

This passage is very deep;

"...Say: The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. And that innate and untaught nature in its essence is called into being by the verses of God, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: This nature prideth itself in its relation to Our transcendent Truth, whilst We, for Our part, glory neither in it nor in aught else, for all beside Myself hath been created through the potency of My word, could ye but understand.

From what I understand the Most Great Spirit is the I Am, the Primal Will is the Cause, that Cause comes from God. But note the Holy Spirit is generated from a single letter of this Most Great spirit, it has given us another level to consider. Then I contemplate the 5 aspects of Spirit as discussed by Abdul'baha and I do not see a separation between the Most Great and Holy Spirit.

This would be a good OP to start and maybe we can get a glimpse into what Christ said we can not yet bear, are we ready?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

So what is your conclusion?
Do you think Baha'u'llah was God?
Baha'u'llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God. How could He be both a Manifestation and God at the same time? This is the same problems Christians have in trying to explain how Jesus can be the Son of God and God. It is logically impossible.

Good point. Those early Christians didn't have the writings Baha'is have. They only had what the gospel writers told them that Jesus had said. And with that, they had to make a decision. An important verse is when Jesus forgives a person of their sins and heals them. When questioned about he asks them what is easier to say your sins are forgiven or, I think it was a crippled man, to get up and walk. So, since only God can forgive sins, that showed to them that he must be God... if what was written was accurate. So, of course, they had to make the NT the infallible and inerrant word of God.

Say Tony, how's things going? I assume you'll be reading this. Don't worry, I'll keep an eye out for one of your posts. I just don't feel right unless I question you about something.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what is your conclusion?
Do you think Baha'u'llah was God?
Baha'u'llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God. How could He be both a Manifestation and God at the same time? This is the same problems Christians have in trying to explain how Jesus can be the Son of God and God. It is logically impossible.

My conclusion would be that God is unknowable. Thus the Messengers are all we will know about God. Thus it is not wrong to call them God as long as we know this.

One can then see why the Trinity was formed, the mistake was they made of the Flesh a God. Muhammad corrected this and said Christ was a Manifestation as Muhammad was.

I see in Abdul'baha's Tablet of the Universe that all comes from God with the Manifestations being the Cause of Creation. They are what our mind will never go beyond. Tablet of the Universe

"Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds. By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence. When, through its power of attraction and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order, became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings, and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine conditions and Eternal signs. Emerging from behind the veils, they appeared clothed in raiment's of light, moving in the firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles of glorification....."

Thus to me we should not use a wrong argument about people calling Christ God, what we need is to show is that Jesus was Flesh, it is Christ who we come to the Father through, it is Christ that comes from and we can see as God and this is also Baha'u'llah.

I have seen Baha'is say that it is the Messengers that send themselves.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Good point. Those early Christians didn't have the writings Baha'is have. They only had what the gospel writers told them that Jesus had said. And with that, they had to make a decision. An important verse is when Jesus forgives a person of their sins and heals them. When questioned about he asks them what is easier to say your sins are forgiven or, I think it was a crippled man, to get up and walk. So, since only God can forgive sins, that showed to them that he must be God... if what was written was accurate. So, of course, they had to make the NT the infallible and inerrant word of God.

Say Tony, how's things going? I assume you'll be reading this. Don't worry, I'll keep an eye out for one of your posts. I just don't feel right unless I question you about something.

All good CG as I hope all is well and Happy with you. As I replied to this above and I will not repeat.

The mistake Christians made was making Jesus flesh body God. It is Christ that is God in Spirit. Muhammad pointed out the Mistake and said Jesus was a Messenger as was Muhammad.

It is this Christ Spirit that is also Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

Thus if we know this of Christ then we can also know the Father, Baha'u'llah. Makes logical sense...the Son becomes the Father.

All this is all we can know about God, they are the reflection of God, the filter we have to use.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

My current thought is we can see it both ways as long as it is not the cause of arguments or that we try to convince others to think of it in a certain way. It is a mystery we are to continually contemplate...how can we grasp this?

This passage is very deep;

"...Say: The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. And that innate and untaught nature in its essence is called into being by the verses of God, the Help in Peril, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved. Say: This nature prideth itself in its relation to Our transcendent Truth, whilst We, for Our part, glory neither in it nor in aught else, for all beside Myself hath been created through the potency of My word, could ye but understand.

From what I understand the Most Great Spirit is the I Am, the Primal Will is the Cause, that Cause comes from God. But note the Holy Spirit is generated from a single letter of this Most Great spirit, it has given us another level to consider. Then I contemplate the 5 aspects of Spirit as discussed by Abdul'baha and I do not see a separation between the Most Great and Holy Spirit.

This would be a good OP to start and maybe we can get a glimpse into what Christ said we can not yet bear, are we ready?

I do not want to argue about it, but I do not think there is any way that a Baha'i could argue that Baha'u'llah was God, given what He wrote. Below are just a few passages of many:

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle... " Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

 

[Trailblazer]

My conclusion would be that God is unknowable. Thus the Messengers are all we will know about God. Thus it is not wrong to call them God as long as we know this.

I think it is wrong to call them God because they all disclaimed being God.
I think it is wrong to call them God because they were not God.
It is also wrong because if Baha'is call them God they are misrepresenting Baha'i theology.

Just because some Baha'is might want to think of the Manifestations of God as God for some personal reasons, that does not make it right for them to misrepresent Bahai theology. These kinds of disagreements could potentially destroy the unity of the Baha'i Faith and the Covenant will not protect us. We will be one Faith with different beliefs. There is no reason for this because Baha'u'llah was very clear about who He was, a Manifestation of God.

The Bahai Faith should not be a religion whose purpose is to make people feel warm and fuzzy. It needs to be the religion of Baha'u'llah. The same mistakes were made by Christians, making Jesus into who He never claimed to be. Baha'is should know better than to repeat those mistakes. there is no excuse because we have the original writings of Baha'u'llah which are very clear.

 

[Trailblazer]

An important verse is when Jesus forgives a person of their sins and heals them. When questioned about he asks them what is easier to say your sins are forgiven or, I think it was a crippled man, to get up and walk. So, since only God can forgive sins, that showed to them that he must be God...

Who said that only God can forgive sins? Is that in the OT? The Bible is such a mess of contradictions and nobody really knows what it meant. The Jews got just as many things wrong as did the Christians.
Baha'u'llah explained who can forgive sins in the Kitab-i-Iqan. Note that Jesus never claimed to be God; He said he was the Son of Man.

“It is also recorded in the Gospel according to St. Luke, that on a certain day Jesus passed by a Jew who was sick of the palsy, and lay upon a couch. When the Jew saw Him, he recognized Him, and cried out for His help. Jesus said unto him: “Arise from thy bed; thy sins are forgiven thee.” Certain of the Jews, standing by, protested saying: “Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” And immediately He perceived their thoughts, Jesus answering said unto them: “Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, arise, and take up thy bed, and walk; or to say, thy sins are forgiven thee? that ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.” 7 This is the real sovereignty, and such is the power of God’s chosen Ones! All these things which We have repeatedly mentioned, and the details which We have cited from divers sources, have no other purpose but to enable thee to grasp the meaning of the allusions in the utterances of the chosen Ones of God, lest certain of these utterances cause thy feet to falter and thy heart to be dismayed.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 133-134​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not want to argue about it, but I do not think there is any way that a Baha'i could argue that Baha'u'llah was God, given what He wrote. Below are just a few passages of many:

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle... " Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167​

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49​

This is the key thought here, read the wording over and over, this is not the Essence being talked about, it is the Spirit;

“Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.”

God Manifest as Baha'u'llah and sent Him (Baha'u'llah)Through Him (Baha'u'llah) we Testify that there no other God but Him (Baha'ullah), not Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí. The name becomes the Veil. Remember all The Messengers are this same Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think it is wrong to call them God because they all disclaimed being God.
I think it is wrong to call them God because they were not God.
It is also wrong because if Baha'is call them God they are misrepresenting Baha'i theology.

Just because some Baha'is might want to think of the Manifestations of God as God for some personal reasons, that does not make it right for them to misrepresent Bahai theology. These kinds of disagreements could potentially destroy the unity of the Baha'i Faith and the Covenant will not protect us. We will be one Faith with different beliefs. There is no reason for this because Baha'u'llah was very clear about who He was, a Manifestation of God.

The Bahai Faith should not be a religion whose purpose is to make people feel warm and fuzzy. It needs to be the religion of Baha'u'llah. The same mistakes were made by Christians, making Jesus into who He never claimed to be. Baha'is should know better than to repeat those mistakes. there is no excuse because we have the original writings of Baha'u'llah which are very clear.

This is where we would both become wrong, I offer no arguements.

I have no stance on this matter except to know Baha'ullah says He is not God and also Says He is God, just as Christ has done.

I keep an open mind, as I can never know God except by God Manifestations.

Try to explain God in any other way but by them!

Peace be with you always Trailblazer. Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

This is where we would both become wrong, I offer no arguements.

I love this, Tony. I cherish this, with tears in my eyes and a lump in my chest.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the key thought here, read the wording over and over, this is not the Essence being talked about, it is the Spirit;

Then why does the passage start out referring to His Essence? I do not see anything written about the Spirit of God in the entire passage (see below).

“Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.”

God Manifest as Baha'u'llah and sent Him (Baha'u'llah)Through Him (Baha'u'llah) we Testify that there no other God but Him (Baha'ullah), not Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí. The name becomes the Veil. Remember all The Messengers are this same Spirit.

You need to read the entire passage in context. Him does not refer to Baha’u’llah; it refers to God. “Through Him (the Manifestation of God) I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him (God), the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.”

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice (God’s Voice) is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men (in a Manifestation of God) , and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation (the Manifestation of God). Through Him (the Manifestation of God) I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him (God), the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men (God) can never be known except through His Manifestation (the Manifestation of God), and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person (the Person of the Manifestation of God).” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no stance on this matter except to know Baha'ullah says He is not God and also Says He is God, just as Christ has done.

Please provide a quote where Baha'u'llah says He is God.
Please provide a Bible verse where Jesus says He is God.

They were either God or they were not God. They cannot be God and not God because that is logically contradictory.
I am a woman or I am a man. I cannot be both a woman and a man.