Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

[Jim]

@adrian I appreciate the friendliness in your posts, especially considering your contempt for me, and thinking that I'm a traitor, a sneak and a liar.

I'm all better now.

I've told you what would I need to see, before I would try to have any discussion with you about our disagreements. I haven't changed my mind.

ETA:

I'll be posting some information in another thread, that might help us out of this impasse.

 

[Dawnofhope]

New @adrian I appreciate the friendliness in your posts, especially considering your contempt for me, and thinking that I'm a traitor, a sneak and a liar.

Hi @Jim

Didn't see your tag again with no 009. I like to think I'm friendly. The main problem I see is communication that is not as direct and clear as I would like. But I see why you are so guarded and careful about what you are saying now. Just come out and say what you believe and think. You don't need to beat around the bush!

Perhaps you think I'm going to get a big stick called the Covenant out and whack you over the head with it!? Perhaps you think I'll contact the Universal House of Justice or the Institution of the counsellors? Perhaps I will shun you and encourage the other Baha'is to do the same?

WillI I do any of that? No. What action will I take? None. Why? Because that is the most measured response under the circumstances.

I'm all better now.

That's good to hear.

I've told you what would I need to see, before I would try to have any discussion with you about our disagreements. I haven't changed my mind.

Once again I'm not clear what you mean, but I've gotten used to you now.

ETA:

I'll be posting some information in another thread, that might help us out of this impasse.

You are the one who thinks I'm throwing garbage, ploughing on your field, denouncing your character....

OK. Lets see your next step. Its like the next chapter out of some story book I didn't expect to be reading. I like a good story with unexpected twists and turns. Keeps me on my toes

 

[Jim]

Once again I'm not clear what you mean, but I've gotten used to you now.

I'll repeat it again, for the third or fourth time. Before I would try to have any discussion with you about disagreements between us, I would need you to say, explicitly, that you're agreeing to help me resolve the conflict that I see between us. Whether or not you see any conflict is irrelevant. I'm not trying any more to have any discussion with you about our disagreements, but if you want to, I will need you to say, explicitly, that you're agreeing to help me resolve the conflict that I see between us, no matter if you see it or not. No matter how long you keep playing dumb, I will not change my mind about that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'll repeat it again, for the third or fourth time. Before I would try to have any discussion with you about disagreements between us, I would need you to say, explicitly, that you're agreeing to help me resolve the conflict that I see between us. Whether or not you see any conflict is irrelevant. I'm not trying any more to have any discussion with you about our disagreements, but if you want to, I will need you to say, explicitly, that you're agreeing to help me resolve the conflict that I see between us, no matter if you see it or not. No matter how long you keep playing dumb, I will not change my mind about that.

You don't see a problem with what you are saying?

I can't agree to anything I don't understand. I'm not a mind reader. I'm not playing dumb. There seems to be this disagreement between us that is in your head. I can only speculate.

Sometimes you need to trust people. Sometimes there's no one to trust and we trust God. Am I the one who can help you with whatever it is you need help with? It depends what it is. I'll help you if your request is reasonable under the circumstances and if I can. That's as much as I can offer.

 

[Jim]

Am I the one who can help you with whatever it is you need help with?

Yes, that's a much better way to put it, thank you. I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of that a long time ago. I'm asking for your help with some problems I'm having with you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, that's a much better way to put it, thank you. I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of that a long time ago. I'm asking for your help with some problems I'm having with you.

How come me in particular?

 

[Jim]

@adrian009 Does it matter to you, if I think that you are creating problems for me? If that doesn't matter to you, please just tell me, and we can just forget it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 Does it matter to you, if I think that you are creating problems for me? If that doesn't matter to you, please just tell me, and we can just forget it.

It’s getting late here so will need to sleep. I must say that I like you and your presence here doesn’t bother me at all. Obviously there’s something about me that troubles you. You aren’t the first and won’t be the last. Some people find me a very difficult person. That includes people on this forum. I’m not sure what to do about that if anything. It’s always easier to see the faults in others than tend to our own. All that I can do is walk with God the best way I can. That’s all any of us can do really.

 

[Jim]

I'll help you if your request is reasonable under the circumstances and if I can.

My request is that you try to understand the problem I'm having with you, and we discuss together what we can do about it.

ETA:

Sorry, no. it might not be possible for you to understand it, or it might take a lot more time and effort than you would want or need to put into it. I'll just request to have a discussion about a way that I see that you might be able to stop piling up dirt from the field you're plowing onto to the one I'm plowing, simply by replacing one grossly misleading, politically charged, life-damaging word in your conversations with a clearer, more accurate and more precise description in a few words, of exactly what you mean. I'm not asking for any promises, I'm only asking for you discuss with me the description that I'm proposing and what possible reasons there could be for not using it, instead of that grossly misleading, politically charged, life-damaging word that you've been using.

That's one problem, the one that I originally wanted to discuss with you. Now there's a new problem: You thinking that I'm deliberately trying to deceive you about my views, motives and intentions. I'm not blaming you for thinking that, because some people who have raised the issues that I'm raising, in Internet discussions, have been very deceptive about their views, motives and intentions. I'm not blaming you for thinking that, but I do want to ask you to allow for the possibility that it might not be true in my case, and consider how you might be able to find out if it is true or not, so that if it is not true, you can stop thinking about me that way.

No matter how many bills in a stack are counterfeit, there might still be a possibility that one of them isn't, and there might be a way to tell the difference.

 

[Jim]

@adrian009 It isn't as dramatic to me as it might look, it's just me exploring possibilities again. If you aren't volunteering for that, you can just ignore it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

" Bahaullah wrote that to interpret His writings correctly, all must refer to Abdulbaha. Bahaullah appointed Abdulbaha as the interpreter of the verses of God." Unquote.
Sorry, it is a point of weakness to designate somebody else for interpretation of one's writing.

Regards

It is wisdom of God to appoint an infallible person to interpret His verses for humanity, so, they may understand His verses correctly. God did the same thing for the revelation of Quran. He gave knowledge of Quran to a number of people who were well-grounded in knowledge, to explain Quran. Allah did not say to ordinary believers make up their own interpretations. He said to them, God will expound Quran. Remember I quoted the verses of Quran for you regarding this in another thread?

 

[paarsurrey]

It is wisdom of God to appoint an infallible person to interpret His verses for humanity, so, they may understand His verses correctly. God did the same thing for the revelation of Quran. He gave knowledge of Quran to a number of people who were well-grounded in knowledge, to explain Quran. Allah did not say to ordinary believers make up their own interpretations. He said to them, God will expound Quran. Remember I quoted the verses of Quran for you regarding this in another thread?

Does one mean that Bahaullah was G-d?
Please state it unambiguously.

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Does one mean that Bahaullah was G-d?
Please state it unambiguously.

Regards

If you mean the physical body of Bahaullah, no, he is mirza Hussein ali. If you mean the spiritual reality of Bahaullah then, He was the spirit of God. Thus, Bahais make no distinction between God, and Bahaullah. It is not ambiguous. Bahaullah chose Abdulbaha means God chose Abdulbaha. God had manifested Himself in the person of Bahaullah, at all the times, and Spoke through Him.

Muhammad had also spoke these words:

Allah Most High says: "He who is hostile to a friend of Mine I declare war against. My slave approaches Me with nothing more beloved to Me than what I have made obligatory upon him, and My slave keeps drawing nearer to Me with voluntary works until I love him. And when I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his sight with which he sees, his hand with which he seizes, and his foot with which he walks. If he asks me, I will surely give to him, and if he seeks refuge in Me, I will surely protect him" (Fath al-Bari, 11.34041, hadith 6502); This hadith was related by Imam Bukhari, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, al-Bayhaqi, and others with multiple contiguous chains of transmission, and is sahih.

And when Bahais speak to Bahaullah for His commemoration, They read the visitation Tablet. Part of the Tablet reads:

"I bear witness that he who hath known Thee hath known God, and he who hath attained unto Thy presence hath attained unto the presence of God. Great, therefore, is the blessedness of him who hath believed in Thee, and in Thy signs, and hath humbled himself before Thy sovereignty, and hath been honored with meeting Thee, and hath attained the good pleasure of Thy will, and circled around Thee, and stood before Thy throne. " Bahaullah- Tablet of visitation

Isn't this clear enough?

Now, let me, make it more clear. Mirza Hussein Ali became God. He did not choose to become God. But God chose to manifest Himself in Mirza Hussein Ali.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi.......
That could be said about Jesus, but 3000+ Creeds and Churches later, they ALL believe that they are true Christians.

They are all Christians...
There was NO WAY for anyone to know WHO Jesus wanted His followers to follow after He died because Jesus had no written Covenant... That is precisely why Christianity split into thousands of sects....

The same cannot be said of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah had a written Covenant
Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant | What Bahá’ís Believe

So there was no question about what Baha'u'llah wanted his followers to do after His passing. That is why those who go AGAINST Baha'u'llah's wishes are called Covenant-breakers.

A book I recently read explains the Covenant and why it is so vital to the Baha’i Faith. It also explains a lot of history, much of which I did not know.

The Covenant of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh

“The Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh is a unique and priceless heritage, unprecedented in past Dispensations. It carries within itself enormous potentialities for the future in the unfoldment of Bahá'u'lláh's new world order and ultimately the Golden Age of humankind. This book provides a wealth of material for the study of the Covenant. The Kitáb-i-'Ahdí, Bahá'u'lláh's own Will and Testament, and the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá are quoted in full in this volume, and the historical events they refer to are explained.”

This customer review explains a little bit about the book:

“This work deals with a subject that should be of interest to all - the relation between the Prophet and His followers. In this case the author deals with the person of Bahá'u'lláh who founded the Bahá'i Faith in 1863. As universal and central to human existence as this subject is it is not an easy one to write about. The author has managed to engage the reader in an insightful discussion. The book blends a review of concepts drawn from Bahá'í Scriptures with a review of historic events that took place in the last hundred years or so. It analyses the parameters of the relationship established through a unique Covenant between the Manifestation of God and His followers, the reasons why this Covenant exists and the consequences for the individuals who knowingly choose to violate it. It is not as difficult a read as one might think. The reader not familiar with the basic facts of this new faith would probably benefit from reading "The Bahá'í Faith: The Emerging Global Religion" by Hatcher and Martin first.”

https://www.amazon.com/Covenant-Bahaullah-Adib-Taherzadeh/dp/0853983445#customerReviews

 

[CG Didymus]

That's not true.

What is not true? That the next UHJ member is "groomed" in the Teaching Center or that the new members of the UHJ have come from the Teaching Center?

But at the very start, how many members actually vote for the delegates from their area? If the area is rather large, who even knows who is best qualified to be a delegate? Because of that, how many people vote for people that are or have already been delegates? I'd imagine that these people are highly visible in the Baha'i community, so they are known by the most people. Are they the best people?

From there the delegates vote for their National leaders. Out of a whole country's Baha'is, how would they know everybody? They don't. So who would they vote for? Probably people they know and are best known Baha'is in the country. And those people that get on the National Assemblies have to decide who get on the UHJ? And, if it is always or predominately men from the Teaching Center, then all Baha'is realistically have chance. The people that want to get to the top leadership positions know what they have to do. They have to make a name for themselves and get known. Is always the purest motives? Maybe... maybe not always. They know the right people and do the right things, on the surface.

Like the high level people that became Covenant Breakers. Who would have thought? Who would have known? Until those people broke away and tried to take power? But, were some of those people even in elected positions or were they appointed by Baha'i leadership, like even Abdu'l Baha or Shoghi Effendi?

 

[oldbadger]

I am not wanting to win any discussion. I just wish to supply you with the correct information on the Baha'i Faith and how a Baha'i does embrace that Faith.

Of course you are free to pursue any of what is offered, in any way you choose to or not to.

Regards Tony

That's cool. Tony. No Probs.
I was only playing about with some other prose, is all.
I might even be getting the hang of that kind of language after reading it for several months.


Cool.....

 

[oldbadger]

Oh yes, both the wife and I. Her first time and it is a very daunting trip.

Regards Tony

Surely, that must be a lifetime goal for any Bahai.
Friends of my late wife undertook that trip, or something like it, back in the 70's. They had to get visas and jabs and special permissions (as Bahais) to visit Israel, back then. They were very excited both before and after their visit & stay.

All the best to you for that.

 

[oldbadger]

They are all Christians...
There was NO WAY for anyone to know WHO Jesus wanted His followers to follow after He died because Jesus had no written Covenant... That is precisely why Christianity split into thousands of sects....

Maybe.......

The same cannot be said of the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah had a written Covenant
Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant | What Bahá’ís Believe

Trailblazer....... Look at the above.
The gap is right there, looking back at you.
Bahauallah and his Covenant/ What Bahais Believe.

And there it is......... the verb which leaves certitude and knowledge behind, and can, has, will cause variations in the Bahai 'creed' over time.

The written word has a thousand variables in every paragraph. It does...... it can have....... it has had..... it will have.....

 

[Trailblazer]

The written word has a thousand variables in every paragraph. It does...... it can have....... it has had..... it will have.....

If you mean that the written word can have different meanings to different people, I can agree with that.
However, that is not true of everything that Baha'u'llah wrote. But if some people misinterpret what He wrote, there is nothing that can be done about that. I guess it was just meant to be that way... not ALL people will understand.

However, I think that God gives people credit if they try to understand it, even if they misunderstand, especially if they keep trying.

It is not as if Baha'is do not misunderstand things. That is one reason why it is good to have these forum discussions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The written word has a thousand variables in every paragraph. It does...... it can have....... it has had..... it will have.....

If you mean that the written word can have different meanings to different people, I can agree with that.
However, that is not true of everything that Baha'u'llah wrote. But if some people misinterpret what He wrote, there is nothing that can be done about that. I guess it was just meant to be that way... not ALL people will understand.

However, I think that God gives people credit if they try to understand it, even if they misunderstand, especially if they keep trying.

It is not as if Baha'is do not misunderstand things. That is one reason why it is good to have these forum discussions.

This passage helps;

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed. . . None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: 'Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá'im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.'" (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 254)

Regards Tony