Bahaism, Buddhism and Islam, conflict or one?

[Trailblazer]

I'm out of here.

So am I, and I just got here....

But before I take flight, Buddha never claimed to be God and that is NOT a Baha'i belief.
Bahais believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God.
Baha'is are just fallible humans so they can misinterpret our scriptures just like anyone else.

I will leave you with one description I wrote up to help me explain to other people what Baha'is believe about Manifestations of God. The following is what Baha'is believe, collected from various sources on the Baha'i Writings.

A Manifestation of God is another term for a Prophet such as Moses whom God spoke to directly. That is differentiated from the other prophets who had visions and dreams.

Baha’is believe that the Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station, and one the spiritual. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory. These Manifestations of God are called the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world (heaven) before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

I am not exactly certain which Prophets are to be considered Manifestations of God. There is no actual list. These are the ones who are commonly cited: Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah, but I do not know where this list originated. If it is not in the original Writings of Baha’u’llah, or in the original writings of Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi, who were the appointed interpreters of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, then it is not authoritative... I want to look into this some more, I just need the time.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahai's know more about Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam, than the adherents.

@ Secret Chief
That is a false statement. Baha'is make no such claims.
The burden of proof is always on the accuser, I wish him good luck on providing that proof.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you claim it's dead?

I do not believe that the spirit of Buddhism is dead, it is very much alive, and there are several Buddhist centers in my area.
I believe that the spirit of Buddhism has been revived by the coming of Baha'u'llah.

Not all Baha'is think alike, not any more than all Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Christians or Muslims think alike.

 

[Trailblazer]

What if we are telling the truth that Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all religions?

It is not about whether Baha'is are telling the truth, because after all, we could be wrong.

What it is really about is whether Baha'u'llah was actually who He claimed to be, everything hinges on that.

 

[Trailblazer]

In Baha'i scriptures there are things which outright contradict things in other scriptures.

They contradict what other religious people believe their scriptures mean but they do not contradict other scriptures. I could easily prove that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bottomline is, there is nothing in the Thripitaka or the Quran about any of them being "manifestations of God".

Of course not. That label was not in existence when those scriptures were written. That was something 'new' that was revealed by Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is have end up denying much of the Old and New Testament (and other religions also) in order for them to advance their cause.

As I have told you in the past, the Baha'is do not need the Bible to advance our Cause, we have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
Out with the old, in with the new.

 

[firedragon]

Of course not. That label was not in existence when those scriptures were written. That was something 'new' that was revealed by Baha'u'llah.

So your theory is that Muhammed knew he was a manifestation of God, but did not reveal it in the Quran which you believe is Gods word, or in any of the ahadith where you took the Mahdi and the Qaim from? But the Quran and ahadith speak to the contrary. Strange isn't it?

 

[Trailblazer]

So your theory is that Muhammed knew he was a manifestation of God, but did not reveal it in the Quran which you believe is Gods word, or in any of the ahadith where you took the Mahdi and the Qaim from? But the Quran and ahadith speak to the contrary. Strange isn't it?

I have no way of knowing what Muhammad knew. He might have known but did not think that humanity was ready to understand such a concept at that time. Of course what Muhammad said in the Qur'an was going to sound different from what Baha'u'llah wrote, it was written about 1200 years earlier, and humanity did not have the same spiritual capacity at that time.

 

[Clara Tea]

We all believe in something (even if that something is nothing). We all have flaws in our belief. I cannot, with flaws in my belief, poke fun at some flaw in someone else's belief.

It is only when they cross the line and start harming others that I am agitated. When Christian beliefs stray from the teachings of God, and attack Iraq and make a torture camp, I must speak up.

But, if someone believes something without proof (no written reason in this case), I believe that they might have other reasons for their belief. That is the essence of faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have no way of knowing what Muhammad knew. He might have known but did not think that humanity was ready to understand such a concept at that time. Of course what Muhammad said in the Qur'an was going to sound different from what Baha'u'llah wrote, it was written about 1200 years earlier, and humanity did not have the same spiritual capacity at that time.

As you probably know, I have a problem with the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation. So... a manifestation preexisted in the spiritual world. Now it sounds as if he is all knowing and all that other stuff just like God or at least has innate knowledge of everything he needs to know. So he is a perfect reflect of God but not God and somehow little less than God. He then gets put into a human body. In most, if not all cases, it seems like he forgot he was a special God-like creature. Then that magic moment happens where they get enlightened or get a vision or revelation or something, or that God starts talking to them directly.

So at that time, I'd imagine, Mohammad might get a clue to his being a manifestation. But wouldn't be the same for all the others? That they'd realize their true spiritual self? That they were manifestation of the one true God. Yet, God in his infinite wisdom didn't want them to reveal such a profound concept until he sent Baha'u'llah? But, God didn't have a problem with the people believing that some were incarnations of a God or the Son of a God? No, that's what I don't get... To tell people that they are special creations and are God's special messengers isn't all that different than what people came to believe about their "special" prophets/Messiahs/Avatars or whatever else they called them. But, for me, the worst of all is... God didn't teach them how to write. Again, not until Baha'u'llah. At least with Mohammad, God got him a secretary that could take dictation. To bad God didn't think of that for Buddha.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then that magic moment happens where they get enlightened or get a vision or revelation or something, or that God starts talking to them directly.

So at that time, I'd imagine, Mohammad might get a clue to his being a manifestation. But wouldn't be the same for all the others? That they'd realize their true spiritual self? That they were manifestation of the one true God.

I believe that was probably the case. All the Manifestations of God knew what they were but they did not reveal that in scriptures because humanity was not ready to hear it..... Jesus tried His darnedest to tell people who He was, what His nature was, yet the Christians could not understand what He was saying so they so they convened at the Council of Nicaea and decided that Jesus must be God incarnate, because Jesus was certainly more than just a man. They were right about that except that Jesus was not God, Jesus was a Manifestation of God....... That is even in the New Testament, and Paul got that exactly right.

1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

But Christians did not understand what that meant because there were so many other verses in the NT that said other things about Jesus that sounded like maybe He was God, so that is what they agreed upon.

Yet, God in his infinite wisdom didn't want them to reveal such a profound concept until he sent Baha'u'llah? But, God didn't have a problem with the people believing that some were incarnations of a God or the Son of a God? No, that's what I don't get...

Why would God care? What people believe has no effect upon God, God is transcendent.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 166

Besides, God gave man free will to figure things out on his own, and besides that, God knew He would be sending Baha'u'llah in the future and and Baha'u'llah would clear everything up.

But, for me, the worst of all is... God didn't teach them how to write. Again, not until Baha'u'llah. At least with Mohammad, God got him a secretary that could take dictation. To bad God didn't think of that for Buddha.

The reason the previous Manifestations of God did not know how to write and did not write anything themselves was because humanity was not yet ready, not spiritually evolved enough to understand the straight dope, nor did humanity need it at that time, because they got along just fine with what they had. Even now many people cannot understand what Baha'u'llah wrote. A couple of days ago on another thread a Christian told me that she could not understand the passage I posted from Gleanings and she said the parables of Jesus were all she needed and they are easier to understand.... Indeed, humanity is still evolving so not everyone is ready to grasp the immensity of the Revelation of Baha'u'llah or the meaning of Baha'u'llah's Writings.

 

[firedragon]

I have no way of knowing what Muhammad knew. He might have known but did not think that humanity was ready to understand such a concept at that time. Of course what Muhammad said in the Qur'an was going to sound different from what Baha'u'llah wrote, it was written about 1200 years earlier, and humanity did not have the same spiritual capacity at that time.

When people make theological claims based on "Might Be's" they can make anything up. Anything.

Anyway, so you dont believe the Quran was Gods word?

 

[Trailblazer]

When people make theological claims based on "Might Be's" they can make anything up. Anything.

Anyway, so you dont believe the Quran was Gods word?

I certainly do believe that the Qur'an was God's Word.

 

[Marcion]

We all believe in something (even if that something is nothing). We all have flaws in our belief. I cannot, with flaws in my belief, poke fun at some flaw in someone else's belief.

It is only when they cross the line and start harming others that I am agitated. When Christian beliefs stray from the teachings of God, and attack Iraq and make a torture camp, I must speak up.

But, if someone believes something without proof (no written reason in this case), I believe that they might have other reasons for their belief. That is the essence of faith.

In this particular case, the beliefs or theories conflict with those of others.
I guess it all boils down to how enlightened you judge other people's guru's or prophets or messengers to be.
If people here would have to make lists of spiritual teachers in order of their being enlightened, those lists would differ greatly.

Some people's top guru would be at the bottom in another person's list.
I am convinced that not all guru's are of the same category.
But how are you to know their true status without having deep intuitive knowledge about them?

Buddhist will probably not believe that certain guru's could have been born fully enlightened.
The Abrahamic thinkers will probably rank the not explicitly monotheist type of guru lower.

 

[firedragon]

I certainly do believe that the Qur'an was God's Word.

Then sis, it was not what Muhammed "might have said or not said". And it is definitely not what "Muhammed said" by your own admission. It is God.

If Muhammed or any other rasool or Nabi was a "manifestation of God" which now you refer as a title, God would have mentioned it. You are also neglecting the fact that I repeatedly said that God is moralising and humanising the prophets, and he is claiming that God is one, and cloven, and there is nothing like him. These prophets are just his creation. They are not manifestations of God himself.

You should maybe do a bit of background study on the Sheikhi's and where the Bab got this manifestation theology from. Its a new thing. Its not in the Quran, which you believe is Gods word, but you are banking on a new thing which the Bab's predecessors had developed.

 

[firedragon]

As you probably know, I have a problem with the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation. So... a manifestation preexisted in the spiritual world. Now it sounds as if he is all knowing and all that other stuff just like God or at least has innate knowledge of everything he needs to know. So he is a perfect reflect of God but not God and somehow little less than God. He then gets put into a human body. In most, if not all cases, it seems like he forgot he was a special God-like creature. Then that magic moment happens where they get enlightened or get a vision or revelation or something, or that God starts talking to them directly.

So at that time, I'd imagine, Mohammad might get a clue to his being a manifestation. But wouldn't be the same for all the others? That they'd realize their true spiritual self? That they were manifestation of the one true God. Yet, God in his infinite wisdom didn't want them to reveal such a profound concept until he sent Baha'u'llah? But, God didn't have a problem with the people believing that some were incarnations of a God or the Son of a God? No, that's what I don't get... To tell people that they are special creations and are God's special messengers isn't all that different than what people came to believe about their "special" prophets/Messiahs/Avatars or whatever else they called them. But, for me, the worst of all is... God didn't teach them how to write. Again, not until Baha'u'llah. At least with Mohammad, God got him a secretary that could take dictation. To bad God didn't think of that for Buddha.

Forget about what Muhammed would have understood. The Bahai's believe that the Quran is Gods word. If God did not understand that his messengers were not everyday humans but manifestations of himself, then God is not God.

Its an oxymoron.

 

[Brian2]

They contradict what other religious people believe their scriptures mean but they do not contradict other scriptures. I could easily prove that.

You can show me that if you wish.

 

[firedragon]

They contradict what other religious people believe their scriptures mean but they do not contradict other scriptures. I could easily prove that.

I would love to see this proof.

 

[Brian2]

Of course not. That label was not in existence when those scriptures were written. That was something 'new' that was revealed by Baha'u'llah.

It is that and most of those whom Baha'i claim to be Manifestations of God did not see themselves as that, but only as men.