Bahaullah: Gawhar Khanum

[paarsurrey]

Bahaullah got married with his third wife, Gawhar Khanum:

1. who did solemnize this marriage?
2. and on what tradition?
3. It sure happened in the post Iqan period.

It is important to ascertain the religion Bahaullah himself followed+ till then.

Thread open to everybody believing in a religion or no-religion.

Regards

_______________
#119

+ irrespective of those who follow him till such time he unequivocally renounced the religion he was following or unequivocally and unambiguously announced a new religion, gave it a specific name and invited others to follow it.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Bahaullah got married with his third wife, Gawhar Khanum:

1. who did solemnize this marriage?
2. and on what tradition?
3. It sure happened in the post Iqan period.

1. None of that is of any particular importance to me. However, there must be SOME importance there, otherwise you wouldn't have thought to mention it.

It is important to ascertain the religion Bahaullah himself followed til then.

Bahaullah, along with another named (the) Bab, prior to kick-starting Bahai, were Muslims....adhering to the beliefs and traditions of Islam.

Thread open to everybody believing in a religion or no-religion.

Not all that sure what the point is to this, but I offered my 2 cents worth as being one of the "everybody believing in a religion or no-religion"

 

[Komori]

Baha'u'llah married Gawhar in 1862, before his "declaration," which Baha'is say happened in 1863 (though E.G. Browne dates it later). In either case, this was when he was still a self-proclaimed follower of the Bab, yet the Bab only allowed his followers to have two wives simultaneously.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Baha'u'llah married Gawhar in 1862, before his "declaration," which Baha'is say happened in 1863 (though E.G. Browne dates it later). In either case, this was when he was still a self-proclaimed follower of the Bab, yet the Bab only allowed his followers to have two wives simultaneously.

I'm not aware of any binding law where the Babi's were required to have more than two wives. Do you have a reference?

 

[shunyadragon]

Bahaullah got married with his third wife, Gawhar Khanum:

1. who did solemnize this marriage?

Don't know, but as a Babi.

and on what tradition?

Baha'u'llah married in the Babi religion in 1862.

1. It sure happened in the post Iqan period.

Nothing changed concerning his wife. The laws of the Baha'i Faith allow believers to keep the wives of their previous belief.

It is important to ascertain the religion Bahaullah himself followed till then.

Thread open to everybody believing in a religion or no-religion.

No, because you are not a believer, are hostile to the Baha'i Faith, and could care less about anything concerning the Baha'i Faith.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not aware of any binding law where the Babi's were required to have more than two wives. Do you have a reference?

I believe the claim was that Babi's may have only two wives, but I know of no known reference. concerning marriage in the Babi religion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe the claim was that Babi's may have only two wives, but I know of no known reference. concerning marriage in the Babi religion.

I'm not aware of any of the Bab's laws that were binding let alone a specific law about only having two wives. Of course there are no references other than unauthorised translations of what the Bab may or may not revealed. What we do know is the Babi dispensation was brief and tumultuous. The sole purpose was to prepare for 'Him whom God shall make Manifest', which most Babis recognised to be Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah would have therefore been under the provisions of Islamic law. Although He declared Himself to be the Manifestation of God for this day during Ridvan (21 April to 2nd May 1863) His laws were revealed later and many were not applied during Baha'u'llah's lifetime.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not aware of any of the Bab's laws that were binding let alone a specific law about only having two wives. Of course there are no references other than unauthorised translations of what the Bab may or may not revealed. What we do know is the Babi dispensation was brief and tumultuous. The sole purpose was to prepare for 'Him whom God shall make Manifest', which most Babis recognised to be Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah would have therefore been under the provisions of Islamic law. Although He declared Himself to be the Manifestation of God for this day during Ridvan (21 April to 2nd May 1863) His laws were revealed later and many were not applied during Baha'u'llah's lifetime.

True

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah married Gawhar in 1862, before his "declaration," which Baha'is say happened in 1863 (though E.G. Browne dates it later). In either case, this was when he was still a self-proclaimed follower of the Bab, yet the Bab only allowed his followers to have two wives simultaneously.

Please provide a reference from Bab instructing his followers to have two wives only.
Thanks for the input.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

Please provide a reference from Bab.
Thanks for the input.

Regards

Reference for what?

 

[shunyadragon]

Please provide a reference from Bab instructing his followers to have two wives only.
Thanks for the input.

Regards

Note: I have researched the extent of the writings of the Bab for the last 50 years and have found no reference to this.

 

[Komori]

To address a lot of the questions and arguments of distortions made by Bahāʾīs here:

Note: I have researched the extent of the writings of the Bab for the last 50 years and have found no reference to this.

If you don't know of this, then clearly you've only studied what your Bahāʾī leaders have allowed to be translated and distributed to the masses. Are you not fluent in Arabic or Persian?

I'm not aware of any binding law where the Babi's were required to have more than two wives. Do you have a reference?

I believe the claim was that Babi's may have only two wives, but I know of no known reference. concerning marriage in the Babi religion.

Please provide a reference from Bab instructing his followers to have two wives only.
Thanks for the input.

Regards

The relevant text is found in Unity 8, Gate 15 of the Persian Bayān:

In this world, the highest of the fruits that God has given to mankind, after faith in Him, in the letters of Unity, and in what God has sent down in the Bayān, is to gather the fruit of his existence such that after his death, man leaves that fruit which will mention him for good. It [to have children] was ordered, in the Bayān, in the clearest and most precise manner, to such an extent that, if infertility is observed in one of the two spouses, the other must marry again with the permission of his spouse, so that a fruit may manifest itself from his existence. Perchance that this child is a leaf from the leaves of Paradise, should he give his faith to He Whom God shall make manifest; otherwise, he will turn into the leaves of the Fire.

This statement is pretty clear. The Bāb made it obligatory to marry and to have children. This was according to the general pattern of his laws, which took many the recommended actions within Islam and made them obligatory (among them this and the recommendation to have only one wife). According to the Bāb, if a spouse is infertile, then the other can marry again so as to have children, but only under these circumstances and only with the permission of their spouse. In other places, the Bāb makes it clear that only one wife is allowed under normal circumstances (8:2). None of the special circumstances were present in the case of Bahāʾuʿllah, so in reality, he was transgressing against the Bāb's laws when he took his second wife, and doing it again with Gawhar. His first wife was not infertile.
Incidentally, this fact (that the Bāb prohibited polygamy under normal circumstances) is even recognized by Bahāʾī authors: "She [Tahirih] began to correspond with the Bab and soon espoused all his ideas [....] She denounced not only polygamy but the use of the veil" (The Dawn-Breakers, p. 270 [footnote])."
In summary, the Bāb allows bigamy but only if the original spouse is infertile.

 

[Dawnofhope]

To address a lot of the questions and arguments of distortions made by Bahāʾīs here:

If you don't know of this, then clearly you've only studied what your Bahāʾī leaders have allowed to be translated and distributed to the masses. Are you not fluent in Arabic or Persian?

The relevant text is found in Unity 8, Gate 15 of the Persian Bayān:

​

This statement is pretty clear. The Bāb made it obligatory to marry and to have children. This was according to the general pattern of his laws, which took many the recommended actions within Islam and made them obligatory (among them this and the recommendation to have only one wife). According to the Bāb, if a spouse is infertile, then the other can marry again so as to have children, but only under these circumstances and only with the permission of their spouse. In other places, the Bāb makes it clear that only one wife is allowed under normal circumstances (8:2). None of the special circumstances were present in the case of Bahāʾuʿllah, so in reality, he was transgressing against the Bāb's laws when he took his second wife, and doing it again with Gawhar. His first wife was not infertile.
Incidentally, this fact (that the Bāb prohibited polygamy under normal circumstances) is even recognized by Bahāʾī authors: "She [Tahirih] began to correspond with the Bab and soon espoused all his ideas [....] She denounced not only polygamy but the use of the veil" (The Dawn-Breakers, p. 270 [footnote])."
In summary, the Bāb allows bigamy but only if the original spouse is infertile.

There's no distortion from Baha'is. From Muslims OTOH.....

The issues are clear.

The laws in the Persian Bayan were never established within the Babi community prior to Baha'u'llah's declaration in 1863.

Shoghi Effendi has said:

"Bahá'u'lláh had no concubine. He had three legal wives. As He married them before the "Aqdas" (His book of laws) was revealed, he was only acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded. He made plurality of wives conditional upon justice; `Abdu'l-Bahá interpreted this to mean that a man may not have more than one wife at a time, as it is impossible to be just to two or more women in marriage."

 

[Komori]

There's no distortion from Baha'is. From Muslims OTOH.....

The issues are clear.

The laws in the Persian Bayan were never established within the Babi community prior to Baha'u'llah's declaration in 1863.

Shoghi Effendi has said:

"Bahá'u'lláh had no concubine. He had three legal wives. As He married them before the "Aqdas" (His book of laws) was revealed, he was only acting according to the laws of Islám, which had not yet been superseded. He made plurality of wives conditional upon justice; `Abdu'l-Bahá interpreted this to mean that a man may not have more than one wife at a time, as it is impossible to be just to two or more women in marriage."

The reason for this was because very few Babis actually had access to the Bab's writings at that point, while we know Baha'u'llah did read those writings of the Bayan, since he quotes them in various works. The Bab's earlier laws, outlined in his Khasa'il al-Sab'a (Seven Directives), such as the Babi call to prayer, were widely known and implemented within the community, and Babis were persecuted for this. The Baha'is love to talk about how the Bab never intended to have his laws implemented, but the opposite is very clear. In the Qayyum al-Asma he calls on the Shah to come to his aid and the aid of his religion, and he envisions in the Arabic and Persian Bayans that at least Iran would eventually adopt Babism as the state religion. In fact, we know from the account of the Bab's doctor who treated him after his bastinadoe, William Cormick, that the Bab believed the Europeans would eventually embrace Babism.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The reason for this was because very few Babis actually had access to the Bab's writings at that point, while we know Baha'u'llah did read those writings of the Bayan, since he quotes them in various works.

You are supporting my argument. If the Babis did not have easy access to the Bab's writings the laws could not be implemented. No doubt Baha'u'llah recognised the impossibility of applying the laws of the Bayan at the time.

The Bab's earlier laws, outlined in his Khasa'il al-Sab'a (Seven Directives), such as the Babi call to prayer, were widely known and implemented within the community, and Babis were persecuted for this.

It does not follow that all laws in the Bayan were widely implemented and known. You have just admitted very few Babis had access to the Bab's writings.

The Baha'is love to talk about how the Bab never intended to have his laws implemented, but the opposite is very clear. In the Qayyum al-Asma he calls on the Shah to come to his aid and the aid of his religion, and he envisions in the Arabic and Persian Bayans that at least Iran would eventually adopt Babism as the state religion. In fact, we know from the account of the Bab's doctor who treated him after his bastinadoe, William Cormick, that the Bab believed the Europeans would eventually embrace Babism.

By Babism was clearly meant the Baha'i Faith. Baha'u'llah was widely recognised amongst the Babis as 'Him whom God shall make Manifest'.

 

[paarsurrey]

To address a lot of the questions and arguments of distortions made by Bahāʾīs here:

If you don't know of this, then clearly you've only studied what your Bahāʾī leaders have allowed to be translated and distributed to the masses. Are you not fluent in Arabic or Persian?

The relevant text is found in Unity 8, Gate 15 of the Persian Bayān:

​

This statement is pretty clear. The Bāb made it obligatory to marry and to have children. This was according to the general pattern of his laws, which took many the recommended actions within Islam and made them obligatory (among them this and the recommendation to have only one wife). According to the Bāb, if a spouse is infertile, then the other can marry again so as to have children, but only under these circumstances and only with the permission of their spouse. In other places, the Bāb makes it clear that only one wife is allowed under normal circumstances (8:2). None of the special circumstances were present in the case of Bahāʾuʿllah, so in reality, he was transgressing against the Bāb's laws when he took his second wife, and doing it again with Gawhar. His first wife was not infertile.
Incidentally, this fact (that the Bāb prohibited polygamy under normal circumstances) is even recognized by Bahāʾī authors: "She [Tahirih] began to correspond with the Bab and soon espoused all his ideas [....] She denounced not only polygamy but the use of the veil" (The Dawn-Breakers, p. 270 [footnote])."
In summary, the Bāb allows bigamy but only if the original spouse is infertile.

"you've (the Bahaullah's followers friends here) only studied what your Bahāʾī leaders have allowed to be translated and distributed to the masses. Are you not fluent in Arabic or Persian?"

While I study Iqan:

1. the way Shoghi Effendi has indulged with translation of some Quranic verses,
2. and he has given hardly any viable references of many Hadith/tradition mentioned by Bahaullah
3. and some friends have given passages from Gleanings, without Shoghi Effendi giving reference of the original books in Farsi and or Arabic, and when asked about them he stated inability to provide them with the pretext that he had forgotten/does not remember from which original book he had translated them .

I also reached the conclusion/apprehension that Shoghi Effendi developed the agenda only to give access to the English speaking followers that suited to his own vested whims.
So the English speaking converts only have half truths.
No surprise if a follower is not aware of the teaching of Bab, whom Bahaullah followed, during his 50 years as a convert!
Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

To address a lot of the questions and arguments of distortions made by Bahāʾīs here:

If you don't know of this, then clearly you've only studied what your Bahāʾī leaders have allowed to be translated and distributed to the masses. Are you not fluent in Arabic or Persian?

The relevant text is found in Unity 8, Gate 15 of the Persian Bayān:

​

This statement is pretty clear. The Bāb made it obligatory to marry and to have children. This was according to the general pattern of his laws, which took many the recommended actions within Islam and made them obligatory (among them this and the recommendation to have only one wife). According to the Bāb, if a spouse is infertile, then the other can marry again so as to have children, but only under these circumstances and only with the permission of their spouse. In other places, the Bāb makes it clear that only one wife is allowed under normal circumstances (8:2). None of the special circumstances were present in the case of Bahāʾuʿllah, so in reality, he was transgressing against the Bāb's laws when he took his second wife, and doing it again with Gawhar. His first wife was not infertile.
Incidentally, this fact (that the Bāb prohibited polygamy under normal circumstances) is even recognized by Bahāʾī authors: "She [Tahirih] began to correspond with the Bab and soon espoused all his ideas [....] She denounced not only polygamy but the use of the veil" (The Dawn-Breakers, p. 270 [footnote])."
In summary, the Bāb allows bigamy but only if the original spouse is infertile.

"In summary, the Bāb allows bigamy but only if the original spouse is infertile."

It becomes clear, as I understand, that Bab allowed only two wives for his followers and Bahaullah defied it two times.

Regards

 

[Komori]

Baha'u'llah was widely recognised amongst the Babis as 'Him whom God shall make Manifest'.

And what credibility does this give Baha'u'llah? The majority of the Muslims recognised the pretender Abu Bakr as the successor of Muhammad. Basically all of the learned Babis who had actually read the Bab's writings rejected Baha'ullah and followed Subh-i Azal.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And what credibility does this give Baha'u'llah? The majority of the Muslims recognised the pretender Abu Bakr as the successor of Muhammad. Basically all of the learned Babis who had actually read the Bab's writings rejected Baha'ullah and followed Subh-i Azal.

Baha'u'llah's writings and the Testimony of His life are what give Him credibility as with Muhammad, Christ, and Moses.

Neither Subh-i-Azal nor Abu Bakr appear outstanding in any way.

 

[Komori]

Baha'u'llah's writings and the Testimony of His life are what give Him credibility as with Muhammad, Christ, and Moses.

Neither Subh-i-Azal nor Abu Bakr appear outstanding in any way.

I'm pretty sure you haven't even read a single page of Subh-i Azal's writings.
Baha'u'llah's writings give him no credibility, considering they're a jumbled mess of incoherent ramblings repeating the same few doctrines over and over again and which pale in comparison to those who he was constantly paraphrasing and plagiarizing and then treating it as some kind of 'new revelation.' Anything that is good in Baha'u'llah's writings can be found elsewhere in the works of Ibn Arabi, Mulla Sadra, Rajab Bursi, etc., and these men were not prophets.
Comparing the Baha'i Writings to the Qur'an and Baha'u'llah to Muhammad is truly laughable.