Bahaullah: Gawhar Khanum

[Komori]

Apparently you cannot, because your translations do not justify your claims primarily because of your hostile agenda.

Of course you continue to dodge the question.

Actually YES! Human fallibility and frallity aside If the population and guidance provided to the believers does not reflect the claim of the message it is not relevant in today's world, and the relevance to how true it is today.

Oh boy...Can you not see how such materialist thinking is completely contrary to true religion? Look at the statements of the Bab, your own prophet who you claim to believe in: "the believer is more rare than the red sulphur of the philosophical stone" (Seven Proofs).

The Baha'i community in Iran has been under the siege of persecution it's whole history, and many killed, put in prison, not allowed to have education nor employment, and their children taken away.

This is hardly true. Have you actually been to Iran? Or do you simply believe the tale spun by these petty bourgeois diaspora Baha'is and their lackeys in the Western media? The Baha'i human rights sob story is probably the greatest example of their hypocrisy, since these do not even believe in human rights themselves. These are the same people who supported the Pahlavi regime, who rallied around Idi Amin and Augusto Pinochet, and who support the State of Israel and the Saudi war in Yemen today. For all their problems, the ulama of Iran made the right choice in clamping down on these people.

You have failed to give any reasonable justification that anyone should believe that Islam is a light of guidance, and justice for all people in the contemporary world.

The proof of this is the Qur'an and the traditions of the Ahl al-Bayt, which you should believe in as a Baha'i.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Of course you continue to dodge the question.

Oh boy...Can you not see how such materialist thinking is completely contrary to true religion? Look at the statements of the Bab, your own prophet who you claim to believe in: "the believer is more rare than the red sulphur of the philosophical stone" (Seven Proofs).

This is hardly true. Have you actually been to Iran? Or do you simply believe the tale spun by these petty bourgeois diaspora Baha'is and their lackeys in the Western media? The Baha'i human rights sob story is probably the greatest example of their hypocrisy, since these do not even believe in human rights themselves. These are the same people who supported the Pahlavi regime, who rallied around Idi Amin and Augusto Pinochet, and who support the State of Israel and the Saudi war in Yemen today. For all their problems, the ulama of Iran made the right choice in clamping down on these people.

The proof of this is the Qur'an and the traditions of the Ahl al-Bayt, which you should believe in as a Baha'i.

Iranian Muslims may be highly regarded amongst themselves but are viewed quite differently in the West and by the United Nations. I have little doubt about the persecution of the Baha'is in Iran. Many of the Persian Baha'is I've met seem thoroughly decent people. Then again, I've met many wonderful Muslims too.

A person's right to be a Baha'i, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist or atheist for that matter is fundamental where I live. Many of the Muslims that live in my city are refugees from Muslim countries where there has been civil war and unrest and they are pleased to have the opportunity to live in the West.

I'm not interested in those that promote hatred of people of any faith. The rights of all people to follow whatever Faith they choose should be respected.

 

[shunyadragon]

Of course you continue to dodge the question.

Dodge what question?

Oh boy...Can you not see how such materialist thinking is completely contrary to true religion? Look at the statements of the Bab, your own prophet who you claim to believe in: "the believer is more rare than the red sulphur of the philosophical stone" (Seven Proofs).

Not a materialist view. This simply a reflection of the real history of Islam and other religions.

[quote[
This is hardly true. Have you actually been to Iran? Or do you simply believe the tale spun by these petty bourgeois diaspora Baha'is and their lackeys in the Western media? The Baha'i human rights sob story is probably the greatest example of their hypocrisy, since these do not even believe in human rights themselves. These are the same people who supported the Pahlavi regime, who rallied around Idi Amin and Augusto Pinochet, and who support the State of Israel and the Saudi war in Yemen today. For all their problems, the ulama of Iran made the right choice in clamping down on these people. [/quote]

The extreme persecution and martyrdom of the Baha'is is extremely well documented and took place throughout the history of the Baha'i Faith, and in other Islamic countries.

The proof of this is the Qur'an and the traditions of the Ahl al-Bayt, which you should believe in as a Baha'i.

You have failed to give any reasonable justification that anyone should believe that Islam is a light of guidance, and justice for all people in the contemporary world.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm pretty sure you haven't even read a single page of Subh-i Azal's writings.
Baha'u'llah's writings give him no credibility, considering they're a jumbled mess of incoherent ramblings repeating the same few doctrines over and over again and which pale in comparison to those who he was constantly paraphrasing and plagiarizing and then treating it as some kind of 'new revelation.' Anything that is good in Baha'u'llah's writings can be found elsewhere in the works of Ibn Arabi, Mulla Sadra, Rajab Bursi, etc., and these men were not prophets.
Comparing the Baha'i Writings to the Qur'an and Baha'u'llah to Muhammad is truly laughable.

I've never, ever heard the argument from the Shia side of the story. And, still don't know much about it. But, it is very obvious that some Baha'is want you to be silenced and just go away. I'm glad you haven't gone away. What some people call "hostile" to the Baha'is, some of us see as being important information that broadens are knowledge of what and how the Baha'i Faith came to be. You might be wrong. They might be wrong. Maybe it's somewhere in between. But, without knowing about why Shia Muslims believe as they do, how can any of us know for sure. Both sides of the story are very important. Thanks.

 

[shunyadragon]

I've never, ever heard the argument from the Shia side of the story. And, still don't know much about it. But, it is very obvious that some Baha'is want you to be silenced and just go away. I'm glad you haven't gone away.

Absolutely no. I disagree and do NOT wish anyone to go away, and this is a free speech forum with I fully support without conditions, Of course, but I most strongly disagree with the dishonest portrayal of the history of the persecution, religious cleansing, and martyrdom of Baha'is in the history of Iran and other Islamic countries, and this is documented beyond any reasonable doubt, and still taking place today.

What some people call "hostile" to the Baha'is, some of us see as being important information that broadens are knowledge of what and how the Baha'i Faith came to be. You might be wrong. They might be wrong. Maybe it's somewhere in between. But, without knowing about why Shia Muslims believe as they do, how can any of us know for sure. Both sides of the story are very important. Thanks.

The hostility toward the Baha'i Faith is very real and well documented in history and here on this web site.

We do know what Shia and Suni Muslims believe and their view of the Baha'i Faith be simply reading the historical records and facts.

 

[shunyadragon]

Of course you continue to dodge the question.

Again . . . 'What question are you referring to? You have failed to respond.

 

[Komori]

Again . . . 'What question are you referring to? You have failed to respond.

The question, which I asked multiple times, was whether you can read Arabic or Persian. It's a simple question. And beyond that, can you read Arabic/Persian handwritten manuscripts?

 

[shunyadragon]

The question, which I asked multiple times, was whether you can read Arabic or Persian. It's a simple question. And beyond that, can you read Arabic/Persian handwritten manuscripts?

No, but I responded that since you read and write the translation your translation did not reflect your claim of interpretation, and you did not respond when I asked for documentation for your interpretation. You also failed to respond to my request fro documentation in the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah that the writings of Tahirih were considered scripture. This particularly relevant because Tahirih proclaimed her belief in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. You made the claim back it up with documentation from scripture.

You need not have to write and read a language to understand, and that is an old egocentric cultural requirement of Islam that the only true language that you must know to understand the Quran and Islam, which is a ruse to avoid addressing the facts and history of the religion. Jews often make the same claim about the Torah and the Tenach.

 

[Komori]

No, but I responded that since you read and write the translation your translation did not reflect your claim of interpretation, and you did not respond when I asked for documentation for your interpretation. You also failed to respond to my request fro documentation in the writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah that the writings of Tahirih were considered scripture.

I addressed this but you seemingly did not get the point. Perhaps this article will shed more light. The Bab is very clear about the station of Tahirih. His Letters of the Living are the return of the Fourteen Infallibles of Shi'ah Islam (Muhammad, Fatimah, and the 12 Imams) as well as the Four Gates (Persian Bayan, 1:3-19, translated in MacEoin, The Messiah of Shiraz, pp. 667-670), so Tahirih and all of the other Letters of the Living have just as much authority as the Bab. The Bab saw it this way, the early Babis treated them with the same authority and reverence. You see this even in the writings of Baha'u'llah from before his declaration. At the end of his Sahifiy-i-Shattiyyih, he offers a shahadah of sorts to the Bab, Quddus, and the rest of the Letters of the Living:

Confess with the tongue of song and celebration, with clapping and drumming, that there is no god but He; that `Ali Muhammad (the Bab) is the eternal essence and being of God; that Muhammad `Ali (Quddus) is the mine of the Cause of God and his enduring quintessence; that the Living Countenance is the sanctuary of the command of God and his subsisting identity; that the Letters of the Living are the first to have believed in God and his verses. Verily, we all cling to him.

This particularly relevant because Tahirih proclaimed her belief in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

Um, how exactly could Tahirih have believed in Baha'u'llah, considering she died over 10 years before Baha'u'llah even announced his claim, and it is very obvious from the poetry of Tahirih that she actually supported Subh-i Azal (Article on biography of Qurat-al Ayn).

You need not have to write and read a language to understand, and that is an old egocentric cultural requirement of Islam that the only true language that you must know to understand the Quran and Islam, which is a ruse to avoid addressing the facts and history of the religion. Jews often make the same claim about the Torah and the Tenach.

Not a ruse, just a reality. You cannot properly do exegesis of any text without command of the language. This does not just apply to the Qur'an, and in fact, this is even more of a reality when we are talking about the writings of the Bab. Very, very few of his writings have been translated, and just as little has been published in the original languages. Most of his works still only existed untranslated and in manuscript form. So yes, my questions are very relevant You've just admitted you know neither Persian or Arabic and can't read manuscripts, yet you seem to consider yourself an authority on the Bab with the grand statements you've made and the doubts you've been trying to cast on my translations and interpretations. I probably have a better understanding of Arabic and Persian than all of your UHJ members combined.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Both sides of the story are very important. Thanks.

this is documented beyond any reasonable doubt, and still taking place today.

The Dawnbreakers Nabils Narrative is a priceless history written in the time of Baha'u'llah from first hand witnesses who also knew the intent of those that were persecuted.

I just finished reading it again. One read and one can judge who's side of the story is more creditable.

Those that persecuted the Bab'i swore on the Holy Quran oaths of peace and then broke those oaths. That is a grave, grave sin in Islam. Whereas the Bab'i knew of the deception, but gave themselves over in respect of the Quran, just to be slaughtered.

Need we say more CG? That history is available here;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation

It is a big and detailed book.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

The Dawnbreakers Nabils Narrative is a priceless history written in the time of Baha'u'llah from first hand witnesses who also knew the intent of those that were persecuted.

I just finished reading it again. One read and one can judge who's side of the story is more creditable.

Those that persecuted the Bab'i swore on the Holy Quran oaths of peace and then broke those oaths. That is a grave, grave sin in Islam. Whereas the Bab'i knew of the deception, but gave themselves over in respect of the Quran, just to be slaughtered.

Need we say more CG? That history is available here;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation

It is a big and detailed book.

Regards Tony

Thank you!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tahirih and all of the other Letters of the Living have just as much authority as the Bab. The Bab saw it this way, the early Babis treated them with the same authority and reverence. You see this even in the writings of Baha'u'llah from before his declaration. At the end of his Sahifiy-i-Shattiyyih, he offers a shahadah of sorts to the Bab, Quddus, and the rest of the Letters of the Living:

This is just a grave misunderstanding of the Revelations of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

It is correct that a lot of us can not read Arabic and Persian and thus can not say much about untranslated writings. The great thing here is Baha'u'llah gave a covernant to which the successor, who was first Abdul'baha and then Shoghi Effendi, were able to make clear as to what was revealed in the Writings.

They did a great job and obviously foresaw the turmoil in the future. They both explained the most important aspects of these twin Revelations and made sure translations were available of writings that would cover all these difficult areas of meaning.

The stations given to the Letters if the Living were symbolic, this is a reference to Quddus;

"Regarding the station of Quddus, he should by no means be considered having had the station of a Prophet. His station was no doubt a very exalted one, and far above that of any of the Letters of the Living, including the first Letter, Mulla Husayn. Quddus reflected more than any of the disciples of the Bab the light of His teaching." (11 November 1936, written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer).

We also have the Universal House of Justice, also under the Covernant of Baha'u'llah who have also clarified this matter;

"It may be helpful to consider that in the Dispensation of the Bab, Quddus is referred to as the "Last Point", and the "Last Name of God", is identified, as pointed out in God Passes By, with one of the "Messengers charged with imposture" mentioned in the Qur'an, and is one of the "two witnesses" into whom "the spirit of life from God" must enter, as attested by 'Abdu'l-Baha in Some Answered Questions, yet, despite these sublime stations, he is not regarded as an independent Manifestation of God." (24 August 1975, written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)

There is a truckload of advice available on this topic.

Regards Tony

 

[Komori]

The Dawnbreakers Nabils Narrative is a priceless history written in the time of Baha'u'llah from first hand witnesses who also knew the intent of those that were persecuted.

I just finished reading it again. One read and one can judge who's side of the story is more creditable.

Those that persecuted the Bab'i swore on the Holy Quran oaths of peace and then broke those oaths. That is a grave, grave sin in Islam. Whereas the Bab'i knew of the deception, but gave themselves over in respect of the Quran, just to be slaughtered.

Need we say more CG? That history is available here;

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation

It is a big and detailed book.

Regards Tony

The Dawn-Breakers is hardly a 'priceless' surce of history, much less a reliable, as has been discussed by many critical authors, particular MacEoin, and I believe William Miller discusses this in his book as well. There is much reason to believe, in fact, that it is not even Nabil's Narrative at all, the original manuscript of which only a few people have ever seen, but rather a personal forgery of Shoghi Effendi's own production. The simple proof of this, which should make anyone suspicious, is the fact that the narrative was never published in its original Persian form; rather, Shoghi Effendi's supposed English 'translation' of the original was translated into Arabic, whence it was then translated into Persian! The only authentic source we have for Nabil's perspective on the events is a narrative poem written in 1860, which was published and translated by E.G. Browne in J.R.A.S. (vol. 21, no. 4 [Oct. 1889], pp. 983-990), but this has never been published or translated by the Baha'is, since it it contradicts certain elements of the official narrative contained in Abdu'l-Baha's A Traveler's Narrative, as E.G. Browne duly notes (J.R.A.S., vol. 24 [Apr., 1892], pp. 304-306). One of the Baha'i scholars who caught onto this was Fadl Mazandarani, a Hand of the Cause whose history entitled History of the Manifestation of the Truth (Tarikh-i zuhur al-haqq) put him at odds with Shoghi Effendi and the National Spiritual Assembly of Iran, since it contradicted many of the statements made by Shoghi Effendi in The Dawn-Breakers and God Passes By.

This is just a grave misunderstanding of the Revelations of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

I think I understand the Bab pretty well on this, and that it's really Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ who are failing to comprehend the mystical intricacies of the Bab's ideas.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is much reason to believe, in fact, that it is not even Nabil's Narrative at all, the original manuscript of which only a few people have ever seen, but rather a personal forgery of Shoghi Effendi's own production.

That tells me of a lover of conspiracy theories over reality.

This link gives a better balance

The Dawn-Breakers - Wikipedia

The current book is only part of the entire work. The original of the whole book is held in the Baha'i archives.

Thus another false accusation has now been made clear.

Regards Tony

 

[Komori]

That tells me of a lover of conspiracy theories over reality.

If it is just a conspiracy theory, then why was the original never published and is still held under lock and key in the International Baha'i Archives in Haifa? If Shoghi Effendi was really doing a faithful translation, then there would have been no reason to withhold the original text from Persian readers

 

[siti]

Your only digging your trench of hostility deeper and deeper. The spiritual laws definitely do change progressively as taught by Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Read your own posts you ridicule the Baha'i Faith based on misinformation.

The rest is rambling, like your abuse and corruption of the word proselytise to condemn the Baha'i Faith and did not respond to my post that called you out on this.

I did respond to your complaint about the use of the word proselytize and explained that I did not say anywhere that proselytizing was a bad thing...And in this thread it is you who has failed to respond - unless you call your repetitive whining about people having "agendas" a response. I have nowhere ridiculed the Baha'i faith - to be perfectly honest there is no need - I couldn't possibly improve on what its own adherents do in that regard - I have simply raised some honest questions which, by and large, Baha'is on this forum have been unable to answer.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If it is just a conspiracy theory, then why was the original never published and is still held under lock and key in the International Baha'i Archives in Haifa? If Shoghi Effendi was really doing a faithful translation, then there would have been no reason to withhold the original text from Persian readers

I do not know if this this book is the whole original. https://www.amazon.com/Táríkh-i-Nabíl-Dawn-Breakers-Persian-Farsi/dp/8190509241

I am sure it will be available somewhere, if not and you wanted to study it, I am sure you could ask the world Centre for a copy.

Regards Tony

 

[Komori]

I do not know if this this book is the whole original. https://www.amazon.com/Táríkh-i-Nabíl-Dawn-Breakers-Persian-Farsi/dp/8190509241

I am sure it will be available somewhere, if not and you wanted to study it, I am sure you could ask the world Centre for a copy.

Regards Tony

Except the published Persian version, as I've said, is not the original. It's translated from Shoghi Effendi's supposed 'translation' of the original. The original has never been published and likely never will be.

 

[danieldemol]

Um, how exactly could Tahirih have believed in Baha'u'llah, considering she died over 10 years before Baha'u'llah even announced his claim

Because the sun does not need to declare its station as the sun, a sufficiently observant person will perceive it’s light.

Tahirih is attested to have written in her letter by Nabil, “The effulgence of the Abhá Beauty hath pierced the veil of night; behold the souls of His lovers dancing, moth-like, in the light that has flashed from His face!” the “Abha beauty” being a reference to Baha’u’llah

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Except the published Persian version, as I've said, is not the original. It's translated from Shoghi Effendi's supposed 'translation' of the original. The original has never been published and likely never will be.

I could not comment on how it was translated, this article on the Dawnbreakers by Dr. Soheila Vahdati comfirms the translation circle.

[Dr. Vahdati is an Iranian-American human rights activist and freelance writer who has published extensively on the effects of the death penalty, women’s rights and gender issues in Iranian journals.]

http://iranpresswatch.org/post/13/nabils-narrative-what-history-has-forgotten/
Or

Nabil's Narrative

Dr. Vahdati has some very good comments to offer.

"...At this time when we are thinking of building a memorial for the mass killings of 1988, it is also timely to ask ourselves: Why is it that in the past we never thought about raising a memorial for the Babis and Baha’is of Tehran who died through public execution, often at the hand of the masses and by the most barbaric and gruesome means?

My purpose at this juncture is to raise this question: What happened that we closed our eyes to the reality of the public mass killings of the previous century (the 19th century) which took place on the foundation of Othering of fellow Iranians?..."

Regards Tony