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Ban smacking?

frg001

Complex bunch of atoms
Not unless you can show a connection between spanking and violent crime.

A direct link would be difficult, and obviously the US violent crime rate would be affected by your gun laws and more so the huge social and economic divide.

There is no doubt that children learn by experience and example. Children who are one religion are more likely to enter that religion, children who are abused are more likely to become abusers, and just because smacking is not as extreme, doesn't mean it has no effect. Of course there are degrees, your example of the smack on the hand to warn of a hot stove, I wouldn't consider smacking at all.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
It is a fact in the country I live in.

Are you sure?

Spanking in Sweden

Two recent reviews of parental corporal punishment have found little sound evidence of detrimental child outcomes such as child aggression. This paper explores whether the 1979 Swedish law against all corporal punishment has reduced their child abuse. Sweden's 1979 law was welcomed by many as a much needed policy toward reducing physical child abuse. Surprisingly, this search located only five published studies with any relevant data. The best study found that the rate of child abuse was 49% higher in Sweden than in the United States, comparing a 1980 Swedish national survey with the average rates from two national surveys in the United States in 1975 and 1985. By comparison, a retrospective survey of university students in 1981 found that the Swedish child abuse rate was 21% of the USA rate in the 1960s and the 1970s, prior to the anti-spanking law. More recent Swedish data indicate a 489% increase in one child abuse statistic from 1981 through 1994, as well as a 672% increase in assaults by minors against minors. The article discusses possible reasons for this apparent increase in child abuse and calls for better evaluations of innovative policies intended to reduce societal abuse and violence.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Your point is? The fact that all parents do not abide by the law, and child abuse has not gone down isn't really what I am talking about.

Ah, so the fact that the facts to match your fact means nothing at all? This is what is called evidence. Have you posted any evidence? No. You have posted many opinions that you claim are facts with no evidence. I post evidence that doesn't match your facts and it is beside the point? What an odd world you live in.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
a 672% increase in assaults by minors against minors.
This is what jumped out to me... and seems to contradict your point that corporal punishment leads to more children thinking it is ok to use violence...
 

frg001

Complex bunch of atoms
Ah, so the fact that the facts to match your fact means nothing at all? This is what is called evidence. Have you posted any evidence? No. You have posted many opinions that you claim are facts with no evidence. I post evidence that doesn't match your facts and it is beside the point? What an odd world you live in.

No, you posted evidence that suggested that parents were not altogether sticking to it and that it didn't seem to lower child abuse.

Many opinions... such as?
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
No, you posted evidence that suggested that parents were not altogether sticking to it and that it didn't seem to lower child abuse.

Many opinions... such as?

The fact is it is wrong to hit people, especially kids.

It is a fact in the country I live in.

but should we look at statistical assualt and murder rates per head of capita for the US and Sweden

Ok, did you read the article?

Larzelere (in press) built on their review by extending the search of peer-reviewed articles to the period 1974 to 1995 plus older articles that met the inclusion criteria. The inclusion criteria were designed to exclude studies that were cross-sectional or whose measures emphasized the severity of usage of corporal punishment. Only 18 studies were found that both met the two inclusion criteria and limited the sample to children under 13 years of age. The 8 strongest studies found beneficial outcomes of corporal punishment, usually in 2- to 6-year-olds. The 10 other studies were prospective (6) or retrospective (4). Three of them found detrimental outcomes, but only 1 of those 3 made any attempt to exclude abuse from its measure of corporal punishment. Further, none of the 10 studies controlled for the initial level of child misbehavior. This seems to be an important methodological problem, since the frequency of every type of discipline response tends to be positively associated with child misbehavior, whether the associations are cross-sectional or longitudinal (Larzelere, Sather, Schneider, Larson, & Pike, 1996; Larzelere, Schneider, Larson, & Pike, in press). Finally, no alternative discipline response in any of the 18 studies was associated with more beneficial child outcomes than was corporal punishment, whereas 7 alternatives were associated with more detrimental child outcomes, mostly in 2- to 6-year-olds.

These reviews suggest that the empirical linkage between nonabusive corporal punishment and aggression comes only from cross-sectional studies, studies of teenagers, studies measuring particularly severe forms of corporal punishment, and, perhaps, studies of punitiveness. This led us to ask how well current societal experiments are working in countries that have outlawed all forms of parental use of corporal punishment.
 

frg001

Complex bunch of atoms
You said...
"You have posted many opinions that you claim are facts with no evidence."

Ok out of 3 "opinions I claim are facts"...you quote me...
1 The fact is it is wrong to hit people, especially kids.
It is, by law, but the law has a loophole to allow physical abuse of your own kids.
Why do I need 'evidence' to prove it is wrong to hit people???

2 It is a fact in the country I live in.
Again this is NOT even an opinion, why on earth do I need to give evidence. Smacking is illegal in sweden. What, you want me to post a link to the f.. statute books??

3.but should we look at statistical assualt and murder rates per head of capita for the US and Sweden

I did NOT post that as a fact, in fact I explicitly said I had not looked it up! And in any case. But a quick google gives me this...
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, before you go making sweeping accusations please get YOUR facts right.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Japan has a low homicide rate and they're definately into smacking. In fact, adults will still be smacked sometime by their superiors.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
So, before you go making sweeping accusations please get YOUR facts right.

*sigh*

Ok, lets get semantics straight. You said that it is wrong to hit people and that this was a fact. No, it isn't. It is illegal to hit people in Sweden, this is much different than being wrong. Whether or not it is wrong is in question and being discussed on this thread.

It is illegal to spank children in Sweden, this is not the same as being wrong so it is not a fact it is your opinion. Laws are not what defines right and wrong, they define legal and illegal. Big difference.

You asked for statistical data and I provided an article that had statistical data. I didn't mean to imply it was your opinion, if I did I'm sorry.

Clear as mud?
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
I think smacking across the backside is fine. Children these days have no boundaries, no respect. They have no conception of seniority, all they think these days is "this person can't tell me what to do."
I think if we ban smacking where i live, the situation will only get worse. I think the days of a beating if you embarrassed your father were a great time, that way children had a motive to live up to the expectations of their parents. Now days who cares, we have no intellegent children and a huge rise in landscapers and stone masons (the kids that couldn't care less there whole life).
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I think there is a big difference between a swat on the butt and a beating. I don't think a child should be slapped on the face, and I don't think items, like belts, should be used when spanking a child, but I am not against spanking in general. When I have kids of my own, I would hope to show the restraint to spank only when the situation warrants it and an alternative punishment would not get the point across as well.

I'm also not opposed to corporal punishment in schools, with the proper constraints, obviously. Even more so, I was sort of enamored by China's flogging method to punish petty criminals. I think it seems like very effective, public embarrasment sort-of-way to deal with small time crooks.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
A lead story on tonight's national news bulletin is to do with banning smacking. The pitch is: "fresh move to ban smacking as doctors link it to child homicide".
I'd like to see some stats to back up what the media claims.

Is it reasonable to ban smacking?
This is a tough question. A friend of ours was recently thrown in jail here in Oregon for spanking his son. He and his wife are going through difficult times and are in counseling. When the wife told the psychologist during her weekly meeting that her husband had smacked their oldest son, the counselor said, "You understand according to the child protection laws I have to report this don't you?" The next day her husband was in jail. It's simply ridiculous.

So, while I think smacking is basically a result of inefficient parenting, I don't think it's a good idea to ban it all together. To be quite blunt, if one is an efficient parent, there's very rarely the need to spank.
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
wel if my mom ever hit me there would be a child homicide ... wait isn't it then just called homicide if i do it?
 

Ciscokid

Well-Known Member
To a child under 6 all a spanking does is tell them that it is okay to hit IMO. You wouldnt lash out at an adult and if you did it you would rightly end up in court. I believe the same protection should be afforded to children.

I was spanked as a child and while I believe, as you that my parents acted out of love, and I am pretty close to them now, I still have flashbacks of it. It will never leave my memory, and is something I have never been able to tell them for fear of the hurt it may cause. There are ALWAYS (albeit more hard work) alternatives to smacking a child as punishment..


You experience trauma because you got spanked? Flashbacks?

I got beat with a belt so bad I had black and blue stripes up my backside and lower back and I don't have any "flashbacks". You Europeans need to toughen up.
 

Comicaze247

See the previous line
I think it's a bad idea. Sure, it's not necessary for discipline, but I think that's up to the parent to decide (though if it gets to be too much, then somebody should step in).

And saying that smacking is linked to child homicide is a no brainer, as some children are beaten to death, but that's only one cause and it's stupid to ban it just because of that one possibility. That would be like banning cars because of their use in drive-by shootings.
 
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