Banning ‘Woke’ Words in State Documents, Arkansas Governor Signs Executive Order

[icehorse]

I already said:

Yes, it is a psychological thing. Like happiness. That is a psychological thing. We can see what neurochemicals are involved, but the state itself, like so many things, is felt in the mind.

Thanks for your response.

Now I think I understand that there is a strong fear that trans people are susceptible to stigmatization, is that correct?

And that fear is why it's considered bad to call trans anything like a "condition" or a "disorder" or an "illness", is that correct?

 

[Revoltingest]

Congratulations. I have given up.

Tis wise to abandon a conversation
that has become unproductive.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Thanks for your response.

Now I think I understand that there is a strong fear that trans people are susceptible to stigmatization, is that correct?

And that fear is why it's considered bad to call trans anything like a "condition" or a "disorder" or an "illness", is that correct?

311. I'm not repeating myself with something you've already responded to.
But I will say something like depression or schizophrenia are stigmatized amd they are mental illnesses.

 

[icehorse]

311. I'm not repeating myself with something you've already responded to.
But I will say something like depression or schizophrenia are stigmatized amd they are mental illnesses.

These conversations can span many pages and get interleaved with other conversations - so i'm not trying to put a burden on you, i'm striving to make sure we stay on the same conversational page

So, if we use depression as an example. I think it's called a disorder. And a person can have this disorder (depression), and still flourish. Similarly, I can agree with what I think you said earlier, that some trans people can thrive without interventions.

So if I said - hypothetically - that "trans is a disorder", my understanding is that that statement would be considered to be possibly contributing to stigmatization. So instead, WHO is calling it "gender incongruence", correct?

Do you agree with the above?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Fixed.

If you do a DNA test on that person, what will be the result?

Man or woman?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"Biology" isn't that simplistic.

It actually is.

XX vs XY.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you do a DNA test on that person, what will be the result?

Man or woman?

Intersex is a possibility.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It actually is.

XX vs XY.

That's false. There are biological females with XY chromosomes. We have never used chromosomal makeup as the determining factor in gender.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What harm is there in treating a trans woman
as a woman, & a trans man as a man?

It would depend completely on context.
I can imagine quite some contexts where for example treating transwomen as actual women to be very harmful to actual women.


Here's another "fun" one I once heared....

Suppose you work on an ER. A transwoman comes in and tells you that she suspects she migh be having a miscarriage.
Would you spend time on her actually investigating a potential miscarriage - and thus thereby taking away time you could be spending on another patient who actually has a real emergency?

 

[icehorse]

Intersex is a possibility.

Intersex is a disorder, it does not constitute a new category.

 

[icehorse]

That's false. There are biological females with XY chromosomes. We have never used chromosomal makeup as the determining factor in gender.

Can you explain how you define sex vs. gender?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It would depend completely on context.
I can imagine quite some contexts where for example treating transwomen as actual women to be very harmful to actual women.


Here's another "fun" one I once heared....

Suppose you work on an ER. A transwoman comes in and tells you that she suspects she migh be having a miscarriage.
Would you spend time on her actually investigating a potential miscarriage - and thus thereby taking away time you could be spending on another patient who actually has a real emergency?

Ah yes, the serious problem of people thinking they have had miscarriages despite not having wombs. Totally a real problem worthy of lots of careful consideration.

 

[Revoltingest]

It would depend completely on context.
I can imagine quite some contexts where for example treating transwomen as actual women to be very harmful to actual women.

Such as.....

Here's another "fun" one I once heared....

I've not "heared" of it happening.

Suppose you work on an ER. A transwoman comes in and tells you that she suspects she migh be having a miscarriage.
Would you spend time on her actually investigating a potential miscarriage - and thus thereby taking away time you could be spending on another patient who actually has a real emergency?

In my experience with health care, the intake process
immediately addresses cis vs trans status, along with
allergies, current medical conditions, etc.
If you see otherwise, the problem is with incompetence,
not the patient.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Intersex is a disorder, it does not constitute a new category.

Yes, it is. The label "disorder" is arbitrary. You would not argue that "people born without arms" don't constitute a category of person.

 

[Revoltingest]

Intersex is a disorder, it does not constitute a new category.

Your response is a non sequitur
regarding my answer to the other
poster's question about DNA.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Can you explain how you define sex vs. gender?

Sex is a broad categorisation of biological makeup, chiefly determined around a collection of biological, sexual traits.

Gender is a collection of categories of social roles and expectations.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, it is. The label "disorder" is arbitrary. You would not argue that "people born without arms" don't constitute a category of person.

I consider it a disorder too, but this is different
from people who label things "disorder" as a
means to diminish other people.
Terminology evolves in response to accumulated
dysfunctional baggage, ie, connotations.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I consider it a disorder too, but this is different
from people who label things "disorder" as a
means to diminish other people.
Terminology evolves in response to accumulated
dysfunctional baggage, ie, connotations.

Sure, but what we deem a "disorder" doesn't disqualify something in the way icehorse wants it to, any more than - in a world where being right-handed is socially expected and preferred - calling people who are left handed "disordered" means we can disqualify them as a category of person.

 

[icehorse]

The label "disorder" is arbitrary.

Terms like condition, disorder, and disease are not arbitrary, accurate distinctions are useful and necessary.

 

[icehorse]

I consider it a disorder too, but this is different
from people who label things "disorder" as a
means to diminish other people.
Terminology evolves in response to accumulated
dysfunctional baggage, ie, connotations.

Forcibly trying to bend reality to avoid possible negative connotations is dishonest, and does more harm than good.

If we want a better world, we have to find solutions that do not require lying.