Banning ‘Woke’ Words in State Documents, Arkansas Governor Signs Executive Order

[Revoltingest]

@Soandso -

You appear to have decided that there is only one correct answer. And if anyone disagrees, you feel free to insult them. That's quite authoritarian of you.

How about you try to steelman my position. You don't have to agree with it.

There are many views on the subject.
Some are useful & tolerant.
Others are harmful.
Your posts are what they are.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, lots of things are inconvenient, like having to share the same space as trans people in restrooms - otherwise, where are they supposed to go to the bathroom? Like I said, this is the real question and I hope you can give me a grounded, practical response on this

I'm going to walk thru my positions, one step at a time with @F1fan.

I hope that discussion will answer your questions as well. If, when I've explained my positions to @F1fan, you still have questions or comments, lmk.

 

[fantome profane]

Perhaps this article can help clear things up:

Why would you think that article would help clear things up? Really, I am interested in your thinking on this. You have been saying these things here for a long time, why would a five year old editorial written by some unknown person help?

This article provides the same evidence and logic you have, which is none.

 

[Soandso]

I'm going to walk thru my positions, one step at a time with @F1fan.

I hope that discussion will answer your questions as well. If, when I've explained my positions to @F1fan, you still have questions or comments, lmk.

I mean.... I don't know why you can't just answer the question. Simple question, simple answer. In your opinion, where should trans people get to go to the bathroom or which locker do they get to use in regards to the current system we are utilizing today? Male and female rooms are what is commonly used in this country at the moment, and that's not going to change on a meaningful level for quite some time

There doesn't need to be a walkthrough on positions. This is the problem. It needs an answer

 

[icehorse]

I mean.... I don't know why you can't just answer the question. Simple question, simple answer. In your opinion, where should trans people get to go to the bathroom or which locker do they get to use in regards to the current system we are utilizing today? Male and female rooms are what is commonly used in this country at the moment, and that's not going to change on a meaningful level for quite some time

There doesn't need to be a walkthrough on positions. This is the problem. It needs an answer

That's often NOT how progress is made. It is perfectly common to call out a problem, even when you do not have a solution.

The lack of a solution does NOT make a criticism invalid, correct?

So providing single use facilities IS one solution. I understand it has problems, but it IS a solution. But I think we can do better at accommodating trans people WITHOUT damaging women's rights.

==

As far as not needing walk throughs, I disagree. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of crap, and I'll bet you that if you look thru all my posts you will not find I've been inconsistent with what I just said.

It APPEARS that any criticism of gender ideology causes some people to lose their **** and start behaving badly.

 

[Soandso]

That's often NOT how progress is made.

This is almost always how progress is made. We take systems we currently use and adjust them in accordance with the newly introduced prospect. When electric lighting first came into the scene, gas lighting had already long been in use. Even though gas and electricity are vastly different things, electric lighting only proliferated by utilizing the systems gas lighting had already established. Only after that step was taken, and gas lighting had become obsolete, could it break away and forge a new path more practical for the usage of electric grids

Progress needed can't just jump the shark and do it's own thing from the get go and be successful. It has to work within the environment it exists in first, and only after becoming successful can it's effects be seen in the real world

It is perfectly common to call out a problem, even when you do not have a solution.

Sure it's common, but it's also thoughtless IMO. Deeper problems require deeper thought - especially when we form opinions about those issues

The lack of a solution does NOT make a criticism invalid, correct?

In this case it kind of waffles around the issue. It's a very simple problem

So providing single use facilities IS one solution. I understand it has problems, but it IS a solution.

But it's not a practical solution. Could this be the solution further in the future? I'd like single use facilities. Right now, though, it's not going to happen. People are queuing up to use the bathroom today. Where do we direct the trans folks?

But I think we can do better at accommodating trans people WITHOUT damaging women's rights.

What rights are we talking about here, exactly? No one is trying to limit what women can and cannot do, so what rights are being taken away from women?

As far as not needing walk throughs, I disagree. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of crap, and I'll bet you that if you look thru all my posts you will not find I've been inconsistent with what I just said.

Well see, the problem is it just feels to me like you want to waffle around the issue and avoid the topic at hand - especially when the question is direct

It APPEARS that any criticism of gender ideology causes some people to lose their **** and start behaving badly.

Does this have anything to do with me? In your eyes have I lost my ****? I feel like I've been fair but honest

 

[icehorse]

What rights are we talking about here, exactly? No one is trying to limit what women can and cannot do, so what rights are being taken away from women?

The right to privacy, the right to security...

 

[icehorse]

Does this have anything to do with me? In your eyes have I lost my ****? I feel like I've been fair but honest

I don't know. I don't keep track of who has hurled which insult. But I've been branded: transphobic, bigoted, anti-trans, alt-right, misogynistic (love that one)..

 

[Soandso]

The right to privacy, the right to security...

How does trans women using women's facilities take away women's right to their privacy? Trans women infringe upon that as much as a cis woman do, which is not at all. They just wanna go to the bathroom

How does trans women using women's facilities take away women's right to their security? Trans women aren't going around and attacking people. They just wanna go to the bathroom

 

[Soandso]

I don't know.

Then why bring it up with me?... If I say something out of pocket, please let me know

But I've been branded: transphobic, bigoted, anti-trans, alt-right, misogynistic (love that one)..

So people lose their **** and behave badly when they "brand" you as transphobic, bigoted, anti-trans, alt-right, misogynistic, etc. What differentiates this bad behavior from simply speaking on suspicions based on observations of someone's behavior?

 

[We Never Know]

I don't know. I don't keep track of who has hurled which insult. But I've been branded: transphobic, bigoted, anti-trans, alt-right, misogynistic (love that one)..

Transgender female says I don't feel safe in the male bathroom. Solution, go in the female's.

Female says I don't feel safe in the female's bathroom with a transgender female. Solution, deal with it.

 

[icehorse]

How does trans women using women's facilities take away women's right to their privacy?

How do you propose women differentiate between exhibitionists (as I showed in an earlier post), voyeurs, and an innocent trans woman?

So people lose their **** and behave badly when they "brand" you as transphobic, bigoted, anti-trans, alt-right, misogynistic, etc. What differentiates this bad behavior from simply speaking on suspicions based on observations of someone's behavior?

There is a big difference between criticizing an idea, and hurling an ad hominem.

All I've done here is advocate for women having safe spaces. How does that constitute bad behavior?

 

[fantome profane]

How do you propose women differentiate between exhibitionists (as I showed in an earlier post), voyeurs, and an innocent trans woman?

How does anyone tell a good person from a bad person? You can't. But that is not justification for discriminating against good people.

 

[Soandso]

How do you propose women differentiate between exhibitionists (as I showed in an earlier post), voyeurs, and an innocent trans woman?

Why is that the question that comes to your mind? What is so special about trans people that we would assume that? What have they done to Garner this assumption?

More specifically, what about trans people makes us lump together voyeurs and exhibitionists with them?

All I've done here is advocate for women having safe spaces. How does that constitute bad behavior?

Do you think those who take issue with what you've said would characterize their reasoning as being against "women having safe spaces?" Why would anyone be against that? It seems to me like you are misrepresenting what the conversation is actually about

 

[F1fan]

How do you propose women differentiate between exhibitionists (as I showed in an earlier post), voyeurs, and an innocent trans woman?

And how big a problem is this, really? A few incidents and it becomes rampant asa threat?

Seriously, trans people are catching so much flak from the right that they aren't going to poke the bear.

And let's all be aware that women's public bathrooms aren't one big open room, they have stalls that are very private. Men and women could easily share one bathroom and have adequate privacy. But for the sake of prudence it is common to offer two options.

Let's also note that men's bathrooms have open urinals. How do we men deal with the likelihood of gay men being in there with us? I don't know, some how we do just fine.

All I've done here is advocate for women having safe spaces. How does that constitute bad behavior?

I don't see that you have argued that women are fearful in significant numbers. And I don't see that you've shown there's a significant threat to women.

 

[icehorse]

Why is that the question that comes to your mind? What is so special about trans people that we would assume that? What have they done to Garner this assumption?

More specifically, what about trans people makes us lump together voyeurs and exhibitionists with them?

ffs, did you read the article i posted earlier? Again, ffs, it's about normalization - just glance at the article.

 

[icehorse]

Let's also note that men's bathrooms have open urinals. How do we men deal with the likelihood of gay men being in there with us? I don't know, some how we do just fine

When women are in their own safe spaces, anyone who exposes their male parts is infringing on those women's rights. It is not the same for men

I don't see that you have argued that women are fearful in significant numbers.

then you haven't read the articles i've posted. now to be clear, you might need to make one or two tiny logical steps, but come on man, i know you have it in you!

 

[icehorse]

Do you think those who take issue with what you've said would characterize their reasoning as being against "women having safe spaces?" Why would anyone be against that? It seems to me like you are misrepresenting what the conversation is actually about

No, but I don't think they're really thinking things through. I think posters here are falling over themselves to support trans people, so they're willing to ignore the fact that they're supporting a zero-sum game.

That said, quite a few posters have said things along the lines of "those women who are concerned just need to grow a pair". argh.

 

[F1fan]

When women are in their own safe spaces, anyone who exposes their male parts is infringing on those women's rights. It is not the same for men

You say safe spaces as if a man couldn't follow a woman into a bathroom, or dressing room in the case of Trump and E. Gene Carroll, and attack her. Women live with the threat of attack everywhere, but you make it sound as if women are safe in bathrooms if it wasn't for trans people being in there using the facility, even if minding their own business. What is the number of attacks on women from trans people versus men? How safe are women, really?

You keep suggesting that women are safe unless a trans person is present, but you haven't shown any evidence of that as being a considerable reality.

then you haven't read the articles i've posted. now to be clear, you might need to make one or two tiny logical steps, but come on man, i know you have it in you!

As if trans people in bathrooms pose as big a threat as mass shooters. How many school shootings have there been? Kids still go to school. How many churches have had shootings? The devoted still go to church. How many shootings have happened to work? Workers still show up up to work.

Mass shootings are vastly more a threat than trans people, yet we all go along with life without being too concerned about it. How many women are really concerned about trans people using their bathrooms? Sure you have some articles that show that things happen. But how big a threat is it, really? You really seem more interested in a case against trans people than being concerned for people in general. Have you said a single sympathetic thing about what trans people endure in society? Nothing I've seen. Are you aware of the suicide risk of trans people? How much of this is caused by intolerant people, like yourself, who vilify these people as if they are negros in 1950's Alabama?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/28/health/transgender-suicide-risk/index.html

 

[Soandso]

ffs, did you read the article i posted earlier? Again, ffs, it's about normalization - just glance at the article.

This didn't answer my question. What do you mean exactly by "normalization?" Normalization of what? What does normalization have to do with the lumping together of exhibitionists, voyeurs, and innocent trans women?

No, but I don't think they're really thinking things through. I think posters here are falling over themselves to support trans people, so they're willing to ignore the fact that they're supporting a zero-sum game.

What makes this a zero-sum game?