Baptism as a public declaration and "spirit of Jezebel"

[e.r.m.]

Ok, what on earth do these two teachings have in common?, you may be asking. It's like trying to find the common denominator between King Arthur and anti-lock brakes. Yet I have found one.

I have come across many false doctrines for which people have attempted to offer scriptures, although that turn out to not be valid, but they at least open up the discussion. e.g.- Romans 8:17 - for humans getting all of God's powers (by Mormons), Malachi - 3:10 for tithing our income in church, etc. I'm sure people offer some verses for the prosperity gospel, but I can't think of any at the moment.

These are the only two false teachings I've heard so far for which no one even offers a verse to try to justify. For example:

The first one uses a wedding analogy to get by having to provide a scripture for the belief. The second simply speaks of the existence of a Jezebel spirit as if it's already established.

Neither of them even attempt to offer a verse establishing that teaching, unlike other false doctrines. This makes them unique. I have seen many videos and literature on these topics that also avoid giving a scripture. These teachings offer scriptures for their side points, but not the teaching itself. I can understand a little more when people fall for the other type of false doctrines mentioned earlier if they don't dig deeply. What I have been trying to understand is the mechanism or mindset of people who say they believe only things in the Bible, yet still accept teachings such as these with 0 attempted scripture references.

My best guess is that those who believe in these teachings, and probably more, somehow equate other sources as equal to the Bible on which to build church practices and policies.

The floor is open.

 

[sooda]

Ok, what on earth do these two teachings have in common?, you may be asking. It's like trying to find the common denominator between King Arthur and anti-lock brakes. Yet I have found one.

I have come across many false doctrines for which people have attempted to offer scriptures, although that turn out to not be valid, but they at least open up the discussion. e.g.- Romans 8:17 - for humans getting all of God's powers (by Mormons), Malachi - 3:10 for tithing our income in church, etc. I'm sure people offer some verses for the prosperity gospel, but I can't think of any at the moment.

These are the only two false teachings I've heard so far for which no one even offers a verse to try to justify. For example:

The first one uses a wedding analogy to get by having to provide a scripture for the belief. The second simply speaks of the existence of a Jezebel spirit as if it's already established.

Neither of them even attempt to offer a verse establishing that teaching, unlike other false doctrines. This makes them unique. I have seen many videos and literature on these topics that also avoid giving a scripture. These teachings offer scriptures for their side points, but not the teaching itself. I can understand a little more when people fall for the other type of false doctrines mentioned earlier if they don't dig deeply. What I have been trying to understand is the mechanism or mindset of people who say they believe only things in the Bible, yet still accept teachings such as these with 0 attempted scripture references.

My best guess is that those who believe in these teachings, and probably more, somehow equate other sources as equal to the Bible on which to build church practices and policies.

The floor is open.

They're con artists.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Ok, what on earth do these two teachings have in common?, you may be asking. It's like trying to find the common denominator between King Arthur and anti-lock brakes. Yet I have found one.

I have come across many false doctrines for which people have attempted to offer scriptures, although that turn out to not be valid, but they at least open up the discussion. e.g.- Romans 8:17 - for humans getting all of God's powers (by Mormons), Malachi - 3:10 for tithing our income in church, etc. I'm sure people offer some verses for the prosperity gospel, but I can't think of any at the moment.

These are the only two false teachings I've heard so far for which no one even offers a verse to try to justify. For example:

The first one uses a wedding analogy to get by having to provide a scripture for the belief. The second simply speaks of the existence of a Jezebel spirit as if it's already established.

Neither of them even attempt to offer a verse establishing that teaching, unlike other false doctrines. This makes them unique. I have seen many videos and literature on these topics that also avoid giving a scripture. These teachings offer scriptures for their side points, but not the teaching itself. I can understand a little more when people fall for the other type of false doctrines mentioned earlier if they don't dig deeply. What I have been trying to understand is the mechanism or mindset of people who say they believe only things in the Bible, yet still accept teachings such as these with 0 attempted scripture references.

My best guess is that those who believe in these teachings, and probably more, somehow equate other sources as equal to the Bible on which to build church practices and policies.

The floor is open.

There is little chance that I would take these two seriously, and if you do, just watch your wallet.

 

[e.r.m.]

sooda and EllenBrown,
Lol, agreed. You get what I'm saying though right? You see that these two completely skip over providing a scripture for their respective beliefs?

But these beliefs have a following. I'm assuming that neither of you subscribe to these beliefs, for which I'm glad. What do you think however leads people to believe supposedly Christian teachings that are so unbiblical, that no one even attempts to offer a verse for them? I'm speaking about people who do study the Bible a lot and still fall for it. Thank you.

 

[sooda]

sooda and EllenBrown,
Lol, agreed. But these beliefs have a following. I'm assuming that neither of you subscribe to these beliefs, for which I'm glad. What do you think however leads people to believe supposedly Christian teachings that are so in biblical, that no one even attempts to offer a verse for them? I'm speaking about people who do study the Bible a lot and still fall for it. Thank you.

Lots of con artists get into religion.. Look who is raving about the end times.

 

[Ellen Brown]

They "SAY" they study the Bible a lot. Over the years I have formed the opinion that becoming religious does not make a mean person to be kind. It is a matter of the heart perhaps? In life we are tested and must endure things that will hopefully help us to see.

You'll get tired of hearing it from me but Micah 6:8 says loosely that we are to practice mercy, love justice and walk humbly by our Lord. Sometimes we do not learn the truth of that until we have been treated with a lack of mercy, and judged unjustly perhaps? These days, I have nothing that the Creator has not given me, and it could be taken away at any time.

 

[e.r.m.]

Lots of con artists get into religion.. Look who is raving about the end times.

Agreed. Yes, but we can't say that they're all con artists. But let's say these teachers are all con artists. I'm talking about the followers. What puts Bible students in such a state to accept a teaching based entirely on someone else's word, and it never occurs to them to ask for a scripture reference?

I suspect part of it is that they are initially taught to rely on the Bible only so much, and taught to rely as much on the teacher's narrative. So that the Bible student who falls for these think they are going by the Bible, and don't even realize how much of it is not the Bible. But I think that's only part of it.
Thank you.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Agreed. Yes, but we can't say that they're all con artists. But let's say these teachers are all con artists. I'm talking about the followers. What puts Bible students in such a state to accept a teaching based entirely on someone else's word, and it never occurs to them to ask for a scripture reference?

I suspect part of it is that they are initially taught to rely on the Bible only so much, and taught to rely as much on the teacher's narrative. So that the Bible student who falls for these think they are going by the Bible, and don't even realize how much of it is not the Bible. But I think that's only part of it.
Thank you.

Perhaps 'conditioning' and a bit of herd instinct. I've made my issues with certain parts of Mormon theology very clear, but they seem incapable of comprehending, insisting instead it is about a "Temple Recommend". Not to single them out because there are other denominations that I see as doing something similar.

So much of Evangelical Theology is about prosperity, or the "gifts".

 

[e.r.m.]

Perhaps 'conditioning' and a bit of herd instinct. I've made my issues with certain parts of Mormon theology very clear, but they seem incapable of comprehending, insisting instead it is about a "Temple Recommend". Not to single them out because there are other denominations that I see as doing something similar.

Thank you. I agree that it could be conditioning and herd instinct, and I also think church culture is powerful, but that might be the same as herd instinct.

I'm not close enough to Mormonism to be familiar with "Temple Recommend". Is that a term deferring to church authority like Jehovah witnesses have with Watchtower Society? I think that their lack of capacity to comprehend shows that it's more than about the teachings themselves. I think there's a lot of psychology involved.

So much of Evangelical Theology is about prosperity, or the "gifts".

There is that element. I think that prosperity theology has fertile ground where people play loosely with scriptures.

 

[sooda]

Thank you. I agree that it could be conditioning and herd instinct, and I also think church culture is powerful, but that might be the same as herd instinct.

I'm not close enough to Mormonism to be familiar with "Temple Recommend". Is that a term deferring to church authority like Jehovah witnesses have with Watchtower Society?

There is that element. I think that prosperity theology has fertile ground where people play loosely with scriptures.

They are looking for gimmicks..

 

[e.r.m.]

They are looking for gimmicks..

Would you please elaborate?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Thank you. I agree that it could be conditioning and herd instinct, and I also think church culture is powerful, but that might be the same as herd instinct.

I'm not close enough to Mormonism to be familiar with "Temple Recommend". Is that a term deferring to church authority like Jehovah witnesses have with Watchtower Society? I think that their lack of capacity to comprehend shows that it's more than about the teachings themselves. I think there's a lot of psychology involved.

There is that element. I think that prosperity theology has fertile ground where people play loosely with scriptures.

My way of seeing things may be different and unique??? In 2004, I lost everything, all that I loved and valued, to include my family, church, job, friends. Then I grieved hard for a few years, going to a psych ward a half dozen times, and a couple serious suicide attempts. No one wanted anything to do with me. The VA said I had the worst case of PTSD they'd ever seen. Skipping ahead a half dozen years. I met Mormon Sisters and one thing the Mormons are good at is complementing folk. I owe the local Mormons a debt that I can never repay.

I didn't stay with them because their Salt Lake City leaders did not want me.

So now, in this life, in 2019, my only care at all is God, and pleasing him. I'll admit that I'm pretty rough but I try. He has my whole heart, all of it. There is no family, job, church and few friends. Perhaps, according to Jesus, this is exactly what God wants. So, every day I think about what I am expected to do and there is lots to improve and much inner contriteness and repentance.

I'm no better than anyone but my life is mostly free of distractions, and I like it that way.

 

[e.r.m.]

My way of seeing things may be different and unique??? In 2004, I lost everything, all that I loved and valued, to include my family, church, job, friends. Then I grieved hard for a few years, going to a psych ward a half dozen times, and a couple serious suicide attempts. No one wanted anything to do with me. The VA said I had the worst case of PTSD they'd ever seen. Skipping ahead a half dozen years. I met Mormon Sisters and one thing the Mormons are good at is complementing folk. I owe the local Mormons a debt that I can never repay.

I didn't stay with them because their Salt Lake City leaders did not want me.

So now, in this life, in 2019, my only care at all is God, and pleasing him. I'll admit that I'm pretty rough but I try. He has my whole heart, all of it. There is no family, job, church and few friends. Perhaps, according to Jesus, this is exactly what God wants. So, every day I think about what I am expected to do and there is lots to improve and much inner contriteness and repentance.

I'm no better than anyone but my life is mostly free of distractions, and I like it that way.

My greatest condolences on your losses, both your initial losses in 2004 and the losses of support you experienced afterward. I've worked in suicide prevention and am familiar with the impact of these things. I'm glad you had the Mormon support and sorry that their leaders withdrew their support. I'm glad that you find security in God and hope you will be able to find a fellowship who will reflect the love God has shown you. I don't believe God would want you to feel you're on your own in this way or unwanted by others who are seeking Him, based on scriptures like 1 John 3:16. This is how God expects His people to treat eachother. I am glad you have found solace and strength in God and hope it will only get better for you from here. If and whenever you just need someone to talk with, you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. You don't have to be feeling sucidal to talk to someone. They can also help connect you with local mental health supports if you wish.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not close enough to Mormonism to be familiar with "Temple Recommend". Is that a term deferring to church authority like Jehovah witnesses have with Watchtower Society?

A temple recommend is a small (wallet-sized) card Mormons who attend the temple (which is not the same thing as "church") must present in order to be allowed to enter and participate. It's issued by the person's bishop (local congregational leader) and indicates the person's readiness to make certain sacred covenants with God. The questions that are asked during the temple recommend interview are:

1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?

2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

3. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?

4. Do you live the law of chastity?

5. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

8. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

9. Are you a full-tithe payer?

10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

11. Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the authorized garments both day and night?

12. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not?

13. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

 

[e.r.m.]

A temple recommend is a small (wallet-sized) card Mormons who attend the temple (which is not the same thing as "church") must present in order to be allowed to enter and participate. It's issued by the person's bishop (local congregational leader) and indicates the person's readiness to make certain sacred covenants with God. The questions that are asked during the temple recommend interview are:

1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?

2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

3. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?

4. Do you live the law of chastity?

5. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

8. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

9. Are you a full-tithe payer?

10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

11. Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the authorized garments both day and night?

12. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not?

13. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

Thank you. Will chew on this.

 

[e.r.m.]

A temple recommend is a small (wallet-sized) card Mormons who attend the temple (which is not the same thing as "church") must present in order to be allowed to enter and participate. It's issued by the person's bishop (local congregational leader) and indicates the person's readiness to make certain sacred covenants with God. The questions that are asked during the temple recommend interview are:

1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?

2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

3. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?

4. Do you live the law of chastity?

5. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

8. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

9. Are you a full-tithe payer?

10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

11. Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the authorized garments both day and night?

12. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not?

13. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

May I ask you to explain #5? Does it mean living as a good example before family? Or not participating in unapproved activities with family? Or something else? Thank you.

 

[Katzpur]

May I ask you to explain #5? Does it mean living as a good example before family? Thank you.

I think #5 would mean what you are suggesting, but that it's also intended to make people think about any abuse they might be inflicting on their family members, both physical and emotional. If, for instance, a man comes across as a truly nice guy to everybody in his congregation, but is telling his wife she's a total loser and she'd be better off dead, he could not, in good conscience, deny that when asked by his bishop. (Of course, not everybody is going to be honest, but the idea is to get people to do a close self-examination of their behaviors.)

 

[e.r.m.]

I think #5 would mean what you are suggesting, but that it's also intended to make people think about any abuse they might be inflicting on their family members, both physical and emotional. If, for instance, a man comes across as a truly nice guy to everybody in his congregation, but is telling his wife she's a total loser and she'd be better off dead, he could not, in good conscience, deny that when asked by his bishop. (Of course, not everybody is going to be honest, but the idea is to get people to do a close self-examination of their behaviors.)

Thank you. That's good. I wish more churches would practice more accountability with regard to how they treat family members.
With that in mind, I will work on my reply to the temple recommend. Thank you.

 

[e.r.m.]

A temple recommend is a small (wallet-sized) card Mormons who attend the temple (which is not the same thing as "church") must present in order to be allowed to enter and participate. It's issued by the person's bishop (local congregational leader) and indicates the person's readiness to make certain sacred covenants with God. The questions that are asked during the temple recommend interview are:

1. Do you believe in God, the Eternal Father, in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; and do you have a firm testimony of the restored gospel?

2. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator; and do you recognize him as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?

3. Do you sustain the other General Authorities and the local authorities of the Church?

4. Do you live the law of chastity?

5. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

6. Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

8. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

9. Are you a full-tithe payer?

10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

11. Do you keep all the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the authorized garments both day and night?

12. Has there been any sin or misdeed in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but has not?

13. Do you consider yourself worthy in every way to enter the temple and participate in temple ordinances?

Mormonism doesn't apply to my original post, as Mormons do not "claim" to only follow the Bible. If they were to believe in baptism as a public declaration or a spirit of Jezebel, and although I could be wrong I don't think that they do, they could easily just refer to one of their other three books.
So this will be a side point but I hope will not Cedar rail the point of this thread.
Numbers 2 and 6 sound like policies put in place to censor their membership. Anytime babe faith-based worship structure ( since you're not calling at church) put that much authority on one individual, there's trouble. Sounds very similar to the Catholic hierarchy and the Pope. Anytime a group prohibits remembers from being exposed to outside information in order to protect our beliefs, there's trouble. Every Church bears that risk with their members. Healthier churches simply educate their members as to what's out there and why they believe the contradictory teachings are false.

Thirdly, this snippet of the Mormon culture looks so different from the pattern of the New Testament Church in the Bible. neither Peter nor Paul we're in charge of the entire worldwide Church as seen in Acts 15 at the council in Jerusalem. And there was accountability, but there was no micromanaging. I'll place the burden of accountability on the members as well as the leadership Hebrews 3:12. In Jesus's parable of the weeds, a lot of the sorting out happens at the end. Forgive me if I got something's wrong with how you guys function. That's just my impression for now based on what we've discussed so far.

 

[Katzpur]

You know what, @e.r.m., for some reason I'm not in the mood to argue any of your points right now. Maybe some other time.